WebGUI irc logs from: 2006-11.log

--- Log opened Wed Nov 01 00:00:15 2006
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--- Day changed Thu Nov 02 2006
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preaction	has anyone set up the WRE on FreeBSD?	03:50
preaction	most of the prereqs I need for the entire system, but some I don't know...	03:51
Radix-wrk	not me	03:52
Radix-wrk	crythias uses freebsd	03:52
Radix-wrk	but don't think he's using the wre	03:52
Radix-wrk	http://gwybsd.homeip.net/fomfiles/cache/15.html	03:54
Radix-wrk	apparently imagemagick and freebsd is an issue	03:54
Radix-wrk	http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help/freebsd--imagemagick--core-dump-among-other-problems#jNRvVtHtOA8J_8f5OPkOxA	03:55
Radix-wrk	Quite a detailed setup for webgui on freebsd, but that's not using the wre obviously	03:56
preaction	ha! i remember that one	04:05
preaction	for some reason, imageMagick just magically doesn't work anymore in my Ubuntu box	04:05
preaction	i have no idea	04:05
preaction	some problem with the XS	04:06
preaction	(not using the WRE, i hate the concept of it)	04:06
preaction	i'm compiling mod_perl2 right now, because the FreeBSD Apache2.2 package doesn't have it	04:07
Radix-wrk	I used to use debian, etc myself.. but kept on having wierd issues that noone at plainblack could identify. navigation bars missing for all users, etc.. drove me crazy. Could not reproduce the issue on my test system.	04:07
preaction	lots more setup for this box... mail server, temporary HTTP server until I get another one (which will also be running FreeBSD)	04:07
preaction	did you copy the /extras directory?	04:07
Radix-wrk	Figured out it must be some wierd perl library version somewhere that was different from what PB were using	04:07
preaction	i've noticed a lot of the docs on pb.com are outdated	04:07
preaction	perhaps i should use my powers to change that situation	04:08
Radix-wrk	so now I use the WRE	04:08
Radix-wrk	on Centos 4.3 (RHEL4)	04:08
preaction	if they didn't give me 2.5 weeks left to do the entire EC rewrite (and i've spent a week and a half just doing Functional Spec and Technical Spec... when can I start CODING?)	04:08
preaction	the debian WRE i installed for a client the other day, worked right away, very nicely	04:09
preaction	hmm..	04:09
preaction	ok, i lied, i like the concept, but not for my own computers ;)	04:10
Radix-wrk	heh	04:15
Radix-wrk	Oooh.. functional spec and technical spec before you code - don't tell me you were actually trained as a programmer ;)	04:17
Radix-wrk	I'm a software engineer by trade myself, and network admin, and tech support, and mr fix it, and .. (insert everything else but the kitchen sink here)	04:19
preaction	nope, not really trained per-se. my specs used to consist of writing all the documentation beforehand (which i suppose would be considered a techspec)	04:43
preaction	i'm quickly becoming kitchen sink. my personal home network is my training grounds for *nix network administration, and plainblack is teaching me software engineering	04:44
preaction	and tech support... monkeys could do it ;)	04:44
preaction	mod_perl takes damn long to compile on a pentium 90 with 32 megs of ram...	04:44
preaction	courier-imap took about 6 hours :(	04:45
Radix-wrk	lol	05:08
Radix-wrk	pentium 90? omg.. that takes me back	05:08
Radix-wrk	I first started with linux on a 386dx40 with 4mb of ram. I couldn't do kernel compiles at all on that thing.. had to get my friend with 8mb of ram to compile me a cut down kernel for my system!	05:09
Radix-wrk	new webgui out	06:13
-!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable: WebGUI 7.1.3) \|\| Need help? Ask and wait patiently (it might take awhile)		06:13
Radix-wrk	heh.. "- Tried to clean up some HttpProxy code. Still very ugly. (need rewrite?)"	06:15
preaction	there were three different indent styles in that damned thing...	07:04
Radix-wrk	heh	07:25
Radix-wrk	Hmm.. odd - if I add some text to the headers section of an article, it gets put in the headers twice	07:57
preaction	are you viewing the article as part of a page layout?	08:02
preaction	it's midnight, why am i still up?	08:02
Radix-wrk	yeah	08:05
preaction	the page layout has no headers?	08:05
Radix-wrk	editing an article and putting the headers bit in that, when I view the whole page, I get all the right info, but the bit I put in headers comes up twice	08:05
Radix-wrk	it's literally duplicated twice right after itself	08:05
preaction	thats weird	08:06
Radix-wrk	never really used the headers section much before.. always added it to our global style headers	08:06
Radix-wrk	but useful for testing out new css/javascript styles and the like - which is what I'm doing	08:06
Radix-wrk	using 7.0.8 still - so could've been fixed already	08:07
Radix-wrk	I've been waiting for 7.1.x to settle down a bit before I upgrade our website here.. still too many bugfixes in it for my liking	08:07
Radix-wrk	Anyways.. odd nevertheless	08:08
Radix-wrk	Trying to get this working in webgui - http://www.html.it/articoli/niftycube/index.html	08:08
preaction	wow, it's been a while since i've seen nifty corners	08:09
Radix-wrk	Would be nice to be able to set up article styles using it. I'm still relatively new to javascript/css and the like	08:10
Radix-wrk	I haven't sussed out the window.onload stuff yet.. which is why it doesn't work currently for me	08:12
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 02 15:51:04 2006
--- Log opened Thu Nov 02 16:51:05 2006
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@snapcount	preaction: ping	17:24
+MrHairgrease	pong	17:25
+MrHairgrease	oh wait	17:25
+MrHairgrease	not for me	17:25
@snapcount	damn it martin	17:25
@snapcount	you generated a tcp/ip error now	17:26
@snapcount	oh wait	17:26
@snapcount	that's syn/ack	17:26
@snapcount	icmp error... just as bad!	17:26
preaction	ack?	17:26
preaction	*NO CARRIER*	17:26
@snapcount	preaction just made a new protocol	17:26
preaction	the meek shall inherit the net	17:27
@snapcount	is this the preaction of Wisconsin who hails as Doug?	17:27
preaction	in the world of mere mortals i am known as such	17:27
@snapcount	is your nic registered with freenode	17:28
preaction	should be	17:29
preaction	yes'm	17:29
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@preaction	word	17:31
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@snapcount	is The Drake on here?	17:32
preaction	i'm not sure, if he is i don't believe he's talked much	17:32
@snapcount	ok... if he ever logs in I'll set him up to be a pb peep	17:33
Radix_	hey guys	17:33
@snapcount	greetings and salutations	17:33
Radix_	MrHairgrease is martin hey.. figures :)	17:33
Radix_	hey roy	17:33
@snapcount	I wish I could do community stuff all day	17:35
@snapcount	it's more fun than programming some times	17:35
Radix_	heh.. I just idle.. that way you never miss much :)	17:35
preaction	exactly	17:36
+crythias	all that blank white space... it's like watching a bitbucket.. being. drip. filled.	17:36
Radix_	or grass growing :)	17:36
@snapcount	BITBUKT	17:36
preaction	sometimes it gets rather wild in here! woo!	17:36
Radix_	but when things do happen.. least you don't miss out ;)	17:36
@snapcount	I have to get the bot back online	17:37
preaction	there used to be a bot in here?	17:37
* MrHairgrease applauds roy		17:37
preaction	perlbot is gone for some reason... i don't know why	17:37
@snapcount	calc pomade	17:37
Radix_	perlbot? - what did it do?	17:37
+MrHairgrease	calc pomade	17:37
@snapcount	that was the best one ever	17:37
+MrHairgrease	that was the good stuff	17:37
+MrHairgrease	yeah	17:37
@snapcount	how did it go...	17:38
@snapcount	<JT> I need some palmade	17:38
@snapcount	<martin> I hope you mean pomade	17:38
@snapcount	something like that	17:38
+MrHairgrease	something like that	17:38
+MrHairgrease	maybe i have a log somewhere laying around	17:39
+MrHairgrease	moment	17:39
@snapcount	thanks for fixing those bugs martin	17:39
+MrHairgrease	i just fixed another	17:39
@snapcount	rock on	17:39
+MrHairgrease	also ldap related	17:39
@snapcount	what are you trying to say =)	17:39
@snapcount	Roy broke LDAP cough* cough*	17:40
* MrHairgrease shuts his mouth wisely		17:40
+MrHairgrease	i dunno who broke it	17:40
@snapcount	it was me	17:40
+MrHairgrease	it just sucked all along =)	17:40
+MrHairgrease	well	17:40
+MrHairgrease	you do provide me woth income	17:41
+MrHairgrease	in some way =)	17:41
@snapcount	My errors are the result of writing code and not being able to check it in for 3 months	17:41
@snapcount	then trying to merge	17:41
+MrHairgrease	oh yeah	17:41
+MrHairgrease	that sucks	17:41
Radix_	yikes.. that would	17:41
+MrHairgrease	here it is	17:43
+MrHairgrease	WRE: pomade = <rizen> give me some of that palmade <MrHairGrease> I hope you mean pomade	17:43
@snapcount	LMAO	17:43
@snapcount	yep that's it	17:43
+MrHairgrease	WRE: mattscode = <pbmdawg> {dangit;} i broke 6.9... beyond repair, probably.	17:43
+MrHairgrease	WRE: urine = <pb_M-Train> Did you know that all humans can urinate through their navels?	17:43
+MrHairgrease	ok I'll stop now	17:43
Radix_	Well.. I'll leave you guys to your pomade and bugs.. I'm off to bed. Night all :)	17:44
@snapcount	I have to get WRE back	17:44
@snapcount	night Radix_	17:44
+MrHairgrease	later	17:44
+MrHairgrease	are you from australia or so?	17:44
Radix_	ya.. I was the aussie at the WUC :)	17:44
+MrHairgrease	ok	17:44
+MrHairgrease	I remember	17:44
+MrHairgrease	good night	17:45
Radix_	nite	17:45
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@preaction	weirdest fucking bug i've ever seen. Image::Magick just FAILS for no reason. restarting apache fixed it...	23:09
@preaction	probably something to do with me using Apache2::Reload	23:13
--- Day changed Fri Nov 03 2006
@snapcount	yep	00:13
@snapcount	like every 10-15 code changes I have bounce apache	00:13
* crythias 's considering rubygui		00:30
+crythias	calc marriage	00:31
+crythias	calc crythias	00:31
+crythias	cruduby.	00:31
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+crythia1	hm	02:30
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@preaction	hm indeed	03:01
@preaction	can someone direct me to the person who wrote the HttpProxy wobject so I may properly pummel them?	03:01
Radix-wrk	can't you see who initially checked it in in cvs/svn?	03:02
@preaction	the svn repo was checked in from the earlier cvs repo, and i don't know where that old cvs repo is (if it even exists still)	03:03
Radix-wrk	ahh	03:03
Radix-wrk	just blame jt then :)	03:04
@preaction	he's got enough blame already ;)	03:04
Radix-wrk	his fault for writing it all.. he gets credit and blame for the same action :)	03:05
+crythia1	cvs @ sf.net	03:05
@preaction	ooh, i can find the culprit	03:07
@preaction	or i could just fix the damned thing	03:07
+crythia1	'cept... not there no more.	03:07
@preaction	damnit	03:07
+crythia1	http://pbwebgui.cvs.sourceforge.net/pbwebgui/	03:12
+crythia1	https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=29894&group_id=1#connection	03:13
Radix-wrk	http://pbwebgui.cvs.sourceforge.net/pbwebgui/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/HttpProxy/	03:15
Radix-wrk	written by JT initially	03:16
@preaction	just says he migrated it	03:17
@preaction	and it looks like it wasn't touched since away back then	03:17
Radix-wrk	21 months 4 weeks ago (isn't that 22 months)	03:18
+crythia1	well ...	03:19
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@snapcount	man... been a while since I wrote some code that I actually enjoyed	19:11
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wdrev	test	20:25
wdrev	I am trying to evaluate Webgui for my companys use	21:51
wdrev	Can anyone tell me what would be the steps to add custom fields to a time tracker or a request tracker	21:51
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--- Day changed Sat Nov 04 2006
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@preaction	snapcount, what code would that be?	01:44
@preaction	(he says 6 hours and 33 minutes later...)	01:44
@preaction	i've been writing technical documents all week, no time for code :p	01:45
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perlm	This channel usually pretty quiet?	20:04
@preaction	yeah	20:56
@preaction	especially weekends	20:56
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perlm	Apache2::Request is impossible.	22:49
@preaction	how so?	22:50
perlm	Can't install it. I'm on Fedora Core 6 new install. Going through the list of modules required and can't get past this one.	22:52
@preaction	yum?	22:53
perlm	XS is where the errors start occurring and I won't touch XS code with a ten foot pole.	22:53
@preaction	there might be a package for it	22:53
perlm	Apache2::Request doesn't exist in the repos.	22:53
@preaction	that's dumb	22:53
@preaction	you're using cpan then?	22:54
@preaction	you have the headers for apache2 right?	22:54
@preaction	and axps?	22:54
perlm	Yeah, using cpan. But the module has to build. Yes, axps came with the httpd-devel repo.	22:54
perlm	ah	22:55
@preaction	and apache2's headers	22:55
@preaction	can you get the build-dependencies for apache2?	22:55
perlm	headers.....yeah.....um......that would indeed be the problem.	22:55
@preaction	i'm not familiar with yum or whatever RH is using	22:55
@preaction	i've been debian/ubuntu forever	22:55
perlm	the generated make file isn't finding the .h's......crap	22:56
@preaction	edit the makefile.pl?	22:56
perlm	running dapper?	22:56
@preaction	dapper for now	22:56
+crythias	:)	22:56
@preaction	getting my FreeBSD apache server running so I can go xubuntu edgy	22:56
+crythias	howdy	22:56
@preaction	bonjourno	22:56
perlm	I should fire it up and see how it compares to Core 6. Core 6 seemed like a huge jump forward for the Fedora line.	22:57
+crythias	:) :) :)	22:57
+crythias	read my suse thing	22:57
+crythias	THE SECRET:	22:57
+crythias	cp /usr/include/apache2/modules/perl/* /usr/include/apache2/	22:57
+crythias	just sayin'	22:57
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help/how-i-got-libapreq6.08-to-install-on-suse-10.1/1#idFxOUXj8tcHQrE0KrXapduQ	22:58
+crythias	or something.	22:58
perlm	crythias, is that a pitch to get me to move to Suse?	22:59
+crythias	no.	22:59
+crythias	It should be rather agnostic.	22:59
@preaction	he's saying if you copy the mod_perl headers to /usr/include/apache2 it might compile	22:59
perlm	fedora calls apache2 dirs, httpd. I'm looking in /usr/include/httpd right now for the headers which should be there.	23:00
+crythias	ok, close enough.	23:00
perlm	The CVS portion of WebGUI looks really slick. But if I can treat it like a framework and developer for it....well I probably won't be able to contain my joy.	23:01
perlm	s/developer/develop/	23:01
+crythias	heh. and if that were the case, ... I wouldn't be thinking of rube gui	23:01
@preaction	you're getting the CVS from sourceforge?	23:01
+crythias	preaction's got a point. cvs on sf.net is ancient.	23:02
perlm	doh....CMS, not CVS....I can't type today.	23:02
@preaction	ah	23:02
+crythias	whew.	23:02
perlm	and my problem is I'm missing the mod_perl headers from /usr/include/	23:02
+crythias	'cause otoh, webgui doesn't support a cvs interface...	23:02
perlm	should be an easy fix.....:)	23:02
+crythias	libmodperl2	23:03
@preaction	otherwise, writing wobjects is pretty easy. figuring out whether to return the data or print the data is harder :(	23:03
@preaction	i still don't understand what return "chunked" does	23:03
+crythias	which fedora?	23:04
+crythias	mod_perl-devel (that's the libmodperl I was looking for)	23:05
perlm	I haven't even looked at the API yet, but I was curious how hard it would be. Like writing a custom cookie based user authentication app that WebGUI would be able to use.	23:05
perlm	crythias, you are fast, I was just installing mod_perl-devel in the hope it contained those libs.	23:05
@preaction	i've heard JT wants to redo the entire auth system, that's how much he hates it	23:05
@preaction	i haven't dived into those parts yet	23:05
perlm	Fedora Core 6	23:06
+crythias	'kay, cause I just wanted to know...	23:06
perlm	The PerlCast JT did completely sold me on WebGUI. If it works out, I'm hoping to move my entire center over to it in the next year. Heck, maybe I can start writing in Plainblack support into grant proposals :P	23:07
* crythias just nods		23:08
+crythias	well, it's been wild.	23:08
perlm	Watching a long XS build go is worse than watching someone roll dice that you just bet $10,000 on.	23:08
perlm	Core 6 as apreq2 in the repos.	23:20
perlm	s/as/has/	23:20
@preaction	umm... oops?	23:20
perlm	yeah....I didn't know apreq2 was shorthand for apache2::request and apach2\|request weren't in the package summary.	23:21
perlm	Okay, I'm onto the configuration of conf files......thanks a million for the install help!	23:25
@preaction	np	23:25
--- Day changed Sun Nov 05 2006
perlm	I'm trying to work through this http://www.plainblack.com/installing_webgui but it appears out of order. For instance, when I try to start spectre, it is obviously looking at the webgui.conf file which I was never told to alter (I created a mydomain.conf).	00:02
perlm	n/m, I shouldn't have had a WebGUI.conf at all.	00:03
perlm	I wonder why in the demo when I turn admin on, I get the admin console on the left, but in my new install when I turn admin on, I don't get the install console....strange.	00:16
perlm	probably have some path messed up somewhere.	00:16
perlm	Unless I did something wrong, the instructions need to be updated so that when the directory "uploads" is being moved into the instance directory, "extras" is included.	00:23
@preaction	yeah, extras needs to be included	00:23
@preaction	let me update that right away so i dont' forget	00:23
perlm	I can't believe it is running on my home box......all I need is to get it going on 443 and I'm golden!	00:24
perlm	This could be a whole new way of doing webdev, with a super slick pre-canned front end.	00:25
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perlm	I wonder if running WebGUI in a named virtual host will confuse Spectre. I have my domainA on :80 and domainB-virtual also on 80. How does Spectre get connected to the correct one?	16:59
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perlm	Hello everyone.	03:24
@preaction	perlm, spectre shouldn't get confused, it uses the first entry in the SiteName configuration array	03:27
* preaction & shower and edgy install		03:27
perlm	Yes, spectre has never been a problem. Trying to put WebGUI in an SSL enabled virtualhost is what took all my time. But now that it is working, I'm really impressed.	03:31
perlm	The people at work tomorrow are going to flip when I show them what we'll be able to do without me writing 1 line of code.	03:32
Radix-wrk	mornin'	03:35
+crythias	kewl beanses	03:37
perlm	I'm guessing people here are part of or closely aligned with Plain Black? Does anyone know if PB hosting services can assure data security to an IRB looking over our research grant? We require absolute anomynity.	03:41
perlm	bbl, hope someone answers :)	03:41
Radix-wrk	I found the same thing perlm - though I found here that just meant that their expectations went higher - and ended up coding templates, teaching everyone how to get the best out of webgui.. problem solving and learning javascript/html to solve problems that webgui didn't do ;)	03:42
Radix-wrk	Only preaction and snapcount are PB employees here I think.	03:42
+crythias	yeah. I don't rank	03:45
+crythias	I'm just a guy	03:45
Radix-wrk	I'm in charge of the webgui site at my company so figure if I idle here I might be able to pick up a bit of knowledge about it on the odd occasion.. or help someone with the knowledge i do have :)	03:47
Radix-wrk	It'd be nice if we had a bigger irc community.. but we're slowly growing..	03:48
+crythias	yeah.. if all of us have 2 logins... why, we could be like people... oh.	03:49
+crythias	10	03:49
+crythias	people	03:49
Radix-wrk	heh	03:50
Radix-wrk	now now crythias ;)	03:50
@preaction	like the poor head of a boy with a pituitary disorder, my army is slowly growing larger!	03:51
Radix-wrk	Well at least we've got two PB employees on here now.. when I first joined I was lucky to see one!	03:54
@preaction	this is what crythias means by "doesn't rank" :p he's got a whole long interview about him on pb.com	03:56
@preaction	hell, the reason I'M here is to learn from the users. 5 weeks working with WebGUI does not an expert make	03:59
@preaction	drake keeps telling us about our "truck number", if JT got hit by a truck right now, the rest of plainblack would be panicking	03:59
* preaction & edgy install for real this time		04:00
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perlm	Anyone have any idea how much Plain Black charges for template designs?	06:39
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perlm	Can someone else change a page layout to "Left Column" and see if ^RawHeadTags(); shows up?	07:10
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@preaction	good morning everyone!	17:22
-!- preaction changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable: WebGUI 7.1.3) \|\| Need help? Ask and wait patiently (it might take awhile) \|\| The Support Boards are open! Your operator is: preaction		17:23
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perlm	I just don't understand. I feel like I've really explored WebGUI from the CMS side (still checking out the API), but this appears light years ahead of commercial products like Novells. Why do I get the feeling WebGUI doesn't have very deep market penetration?	19:12
@preaction	because it's free software backed by a company that doesn't have millions to spend on marketing, nor dozens of people to spend on development?	19:13
@preaction	up until last month, the dev team consisted of four programmers and one designer	19:14
@preaction	now there's six	19:14
@preaction	programmers, i mean	19:14
@preaction	plus the community regulars, there's 4-5 i see often	19:14
perlm	The last place I worked at spent ~$300K on consultants getting Novell's CMS tool configured. And to this day it is a buggy unscalable POS that causes them no end of pain.	19:15
@preaction	... wow	19:15
perlm	Sounds like JT needs to hiring a marketing firm.	19:16
@preaction	i couldn't tell you the figures, but AMLA is getting two weeks of priority bugfixes to make their site completely 100% awesome, and i can guarantee it's less than 50K, probably less than 10K, hell, probably a lot less	19:16
@preaction	we're loaded as it is :P	19:16
@preaction	i'm on the support forums today, but otherwise roy's been pulling 60+ hour weeks, i anticipate i'll be doing the same for a couple weeks to get this EventCalendar rebuild released	19:17
@preaction	today i get to relax, fix some bugs, chat on IRC	19:18
perlm	loaded for work or loaded for an income stream?	19:20
perlm	or both :D	19:20
@preaction	work	19:20
@preaction	income stream is none of my business, and i'm happier that way	19:20
@preaction	my paycheque comes in, i work my little code-monkey buns off	19:21
perlm	sounds like exciting times	19:23
@preaction	if they'd just sign off on the durned technical specification i could get to real work	19:23
@preaction	and tomorrow we're having a bugfix day at JT's house	19:23
@preaction	should be good times	19:24
perlm	man, that is how you make a living? going to the boss's house for code parties? I'm frak'n green over here.	19:31
@preaction	likewise with the newbness here, this is my third week in my first "real" programming job	19:33
@preaction	freelancing doesn't count when you're working full-time at walmart	19:33
perlm	Even if they only pay you with fritos and coke, you might have one of the coolest jobs out there.	19:36
@preaction	bah. i keep forgetting ubuntu doesn't install build-essential by default	19:36
@preaction	i love it, except for the not understanding a damned thing part	19:37
@preaction	i mean, i know Perl, i know CSS, etc... but WebGUI is mammoth	19:37
@preaction	if JT was hit by a truck, the entire company would be in deep mekrob	19:37
diakopter	nah	19:37
perlm	yeah, I just started exploring it 4 years since I first looked at it, and it is incredibely complex	19:38
diakopter	preaction: depends on the type of truck.	19:39
@preaction	one of my goals is to tone down the complexity, but i doubt that will happen.	19:39
diakopter	preaction: what bug are you currently working on?	19:40
@preaction	AMLA had some bugs in the commerce system, which is getting overhauled for the 8.x series, but i'm fixing this stuff now	19:40
@preaction	trying to get Apache2::Reload working so i don't have to restart apache a billion times	19:41
@preaction	and why didn't CPAN notice that i didn't even have make installed?	19:41
perlm	but exactly what I've been looking for. The CMS gets sites up and running with minimal design work on my part, and the API is a well structured framework. What's not to love?	19:42
@preaction	the one thing that irks me is how the session instance is handled. it gets referenced in almost every single object	19:43
@preaction	it's also very very large	19:43
perlm	I wonder if I could put together a Fedora rpm for the repos. All the libs that require building are in the repos, and everything else was easily found in CPAN.	19:43
diakopter	preaction: what's wrong with it being large? It's never duplicated?	19:44
@preaction	perlm, i was thinking the same thing for ubuntu, but then there's the WRE	19:44
@preaction	diakopter, which is true, it's a personal preference of mine. it seems inelegant	19:45
perlm	WRE? That is great for people who don't know systems, but I like to know what's going on under the hood.	19:45
perlm	as long s the keyword "keys" never appears in OO perl, size and speed are not issues.	19:45
@preaction	i'm a minimalist at heart, WebGUI can't be minimalist, because the target audience are normal Joe Users	19:46
diakopter	when's the wiki asset going to make it to svn?	19:47
@preaction	plus, i'm not privy to the information on why certain things had to happen, so there are still things i don't understand	19:47
@preaction	that's a durn good question	19:48
@preaction	snapcount, roy, you got info?	19:48
@preaction	JT took over devel on it, he might know	19:48
@preaction	the wiki will make support so much easier, and better documentation	19:52
@preaction	i believe our tech writer started today too, so that should help the docs	19:52
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perlm	tech writer? You must be doing well if you can afford to hire a tech writer.	20:09
@preaction	or we anticipate doing good in the future with the new contracts	20:18
+crythias	:)	21:17
* crythias could have attempted tech writing, but never ft		21:18
@preaction	i can write good docs, but i could never just write docs. i need to code	21:22
@preaction	i'm always paranoid that people won't understand my docs, but code is code	21:23
@preaction	anyone here know if something major changed for Template assets between 6.2 and 6.8?	21:34
perlm	Security tabs not showing up for users in Admin group?	21:35
+crythias	yeah, lots. try.. um.. version history	21:35
+crythias	my faq has more info.	21:37
+crythias	http://www.gwy2.org/fomfiles/cache/52.html	21:38
@preaction	i mean more to the structure of the Templates table. there's apparently a problem migrating 6.2 CS templates to 7.1.3, and it has to do with something that changed from then to 6.8	21:38
+crythias	Yeah. no Navigation	21:38
+crythias	everything got changed to AssetProxy	21:39
@preaction	remind me to thoroughly bitch these people out for staying back at 6.2 for this long and expecting everything to just work when migrating...	21:40
@preaction	seems there's a gotcha specifically for Collaboration system templates in 6.3	21:41
+crythias	mm.. yeah. and I lost lotsa collab stuff	21:41
perlm	Strange that Admin, who defaults to admin group and a guru level, can't see the security tabs.	21:49
perlm	strike that as Admin works fine. just another user error.	21:50
perlm	Which sounds easier, a macro that changes a users group, or a Paypal asset?	21:51
@preaction	why a macro?	21:52
@preaction	Paypal asset? you can't implement it as a WebGUI::Commerce::Payment?	21:52
perlm	I guess I should look at the API before I go off half-cocked re-inventing the wheel.	21:53
@preaction	probably	21:55
@preaction	users can have more than one group, just add them	21:55
+crythias	um. macro that changes a user's group is easy.	21:55
+crythias	what preaction said is more relevant.	21:55
+crythias	I don't get the existing "Add me to a group" macro.	21:56
perlm	The macro would be for after a data form has been successfully completed, they would be added to a new group giving them access to new page layouts + assets.	21:56
+crythias	give them the url	21:56
+crythias	there's already an add me to a group macro	21:56
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/using_webgui?op=viewHelp;hid=group%20add;namespace=Macro_GroupAdd	21:58
perlm	Very cool, but the user should have completed a data entry form before they can be added. So the validation of the data form could also add the user to the new group.	22:00
+crythias	then again, the datafor result screen could have a "Click here" (groupadd macro) when finished reading the dataform successful page.	22:00
@preaction	perlm, so put the macro on the successful completion template, and they'll get added	22:01
+crythias	well, they still have to click the link.	22:01
perlm	Nice	22:02
@snapcount	did someone say something to me?	22:15
@snapcount	preaction perhaps?	22:16
+crythias	you were mentioned in a list ...	22:42
@snapcount	and here I was thinking I was special	23:03
@snapcount	sheesh	23:03
@preaction	you are speshul, short-bus speshul	23:46
@preaction	but ... maybe... you wouldn't happen to know what's up with the Wiki asset would you?	23:46
+crythias	heh. short-bus special.	23:50
perlm	I'm curious as to how something like a Wiki asset gets decided. With apps like MediaWiki, it would seem like building interfaces to them would also be a good idea.	23:57
+crythias	well, there's a deal.	23:57
+crythias	see, wiki is weird.	23:57
+crythias	I'm rather incensed that there has to be always a "new" way to do what already is done.	23:58
+crythias	but wiki in WebGUI adds some complications as to how WikiWords (if implemented) will be handled.	23:58
+crythias	but we've discussed that ...	23:59
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/mods/what-is-a-wiki	23:59
--- Day changed Tue Nov 07 2006
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/mods/twiki_or_usemodwiki#v5uY0G-uS_ZjdPTfitUQ1g	00:00
perlm	reading now	00:00
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/etcetera/discuss-how-would-you-want-a-wiki-implemented-in-webgui	00:00
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/first-webgui-7-beta-released-6.99.0/1 "Added a wiki-like feature that will automatically bring a user to the create a page form if they are in admin mode, and click on a link to a page that doesn't exist yet."	00:03
+crythias	http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/dev/forums/smoke-tests/smoke-test-results1111111111111 (wiki stuff)	00:04
+crythias	no wiki failed since 10/16/06	00:05
@preaction	doesn't look like there even is a wiki in the smoke tests	00:07
+crythias	10/14 10/15 10/16 had label issues	00:07
@preaction	oh, duh, at the bottom there	00:08
+crythias	"My computer won't turn on" "Did you talk nice to it?"	00:09
perlm	I'm trying to create an HTTP::Proxy Asset to connect to my MediaWiki page and having no luck.	00:10
+crythias	hm..	00:10
perlm	My sites can only be accessed via ssl, so that is probably the issue.	00:10
perlm	Nope, I just proxied my WebGUI site with ssl no problem.	00:11
+crythias	gtg ttyl	00:12
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perlm	Hmm. I got the proxy working for my wiki. I would either have to have a custom wiki proxy asset to manage userid's and pwd's for the auto-login or else have both sites use LDAP and just pass along the uid/pwd.	00:25
@preaction	was there ever any talk about implementing everything possible in WebGUI as an Asset?	01:01
@preaction	Operations as Assets, Auth as Assets, Products as Assets, etc...	01:01
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Radix-Work	lol - Someone's not a happy chappy - "I started this thread more than three years ago. I do not even work at the same company any more nor do I use WebGui any longer. Lets let it die."	04:39
@preaction	whoa	04:40
Radix-Work	http://www.plainblack.com/etcetera/using_collateral_image_in_style/4#idaWMnIR3raUfiSM_F8490oA	04:40
Radix-Work	poor guy.. posted in 2003, and never got an answer until someone asked the same question in response to his thread recently. I responded and now he's annoyed because he finally got a response.	04:42
@snapcount	I'd be mad too if a group of people spent thousands of hours writing software, gave it away for free, and didn't take the time to answer my questions for free =)	04:46
@snapcount	I'll never understand why people undervalue FOSS but have expectations for it that rival every piece of closed source software on the planet	04:47
@preaction	perlbot hubris	04:49
perlbot	Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. [Also, the thing that makes you write programs to do something that's already been done, because you believe you can do it better --- Wim.] Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer.	04:49
@snapcount	perlbot perl	08:01
perlbot	It's Perl (for the language) or perl (for the interpreter) but NEVER PERL!	08:01
@snapcount	perlbot epoch	08:01
@preaction	perlbot bbif	08:02
@preaction	perlbot keywords	08:02
perlbot	Check out all the things I know: http://www.chrisangell.com/cgi-bin/botkeywords.cgi Don't want to see the port and country TLD facts? http://chrisangell.com/cgi-bin/botkeywords.cgi?noports=1&nocountries=1	08:02
@preaction	perlbot help	08:03
perlbot	(fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)	08:03
@preaction	phone 9205791030	08:04
@preaction	fortune	08:06
@preaction	perlbot fortune	08:06
perlbot	He who findeth sensuous pleasures in the bodies of lush, hot, pink damsels is not righteous, but he can have a lot more fun.	08:06
@preaction	perlbot fortune	08:06
perlbot	Physicists do it with charm.	08:06
Radix-Work	perlbot fortune	08:07
perlbot	War is menstruation envy.	08:07
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Radix-Work	perlbot learn Lotto as Lotto is a tax for people who can't do math.	08:19
perlbot	added Lotto to the database	08:19
Radix-Work	perlbot lotto	08:19
perlbot	Lotto is a tax for people who can't do math.	08:19
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@preaction	perlbot doesn't work	10:16
perlbot	What do you mean it doesn't work? What happens when you try to run it? What's the output? What's the error message? What did you expect to happen? We need more information to help you.	10:16
@preaction	perlbot it doesn't work	10:16
perlbot	Look buddy, doesn't work is a strong statement. Does it sit on the couch all day? Does it want more money? Is it on IRC all the time? Be specific! Examples of what doesn't work (or the URL) tend to help too, or pastebin the code	10:16
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ckotil	Has anyone created a google sitemap of their webgui site?	15:57
ckotil	http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=34606	15:57
Radix_	ckotil, I did.. and I used webgui to generate the sitemap file too	16:35
Radix_	but since switching to the wre I haven't installed python again and haven't got it going again	16:36
Radix_	it's on my list of todo's.	16:36
Radix_	I used the text file method - you can use a snippet with an assetproxy to a navigation object with a blank template - and return mime type text.	16:38
Radix_	then use their sitemap_gen.py script	16:38
ckotil	what are the settings for the navigation asset? start at root, navigate down to infinity?	17:03
Radix_	I think that's what I used yeah	17:03
ckotil	awesome. thanks	17:04
Radix_	np :)	17:04
ckotil	i thought about doing it that way, but i figured i had to whip up a template to output the XML	17:04
ckotil	so i tried the python script, but couldnt get a working config.xml file	17:04
Radix_	nah.. snippets and assetproxy combo's are great like that	17:05
ckotil	ya, ive used them a few times in my site.	17:05
ckotil	which is FINALLY going live tomorrow. thats when the DNS is scheduled to change	17:05
Radix_	woot.. congrats :)	17:05
ckotil	thanks.	17:05
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ckotil	is there a way for me to find out what is causing this workflow error?	18:39
ckotil	2006/11/06 23:35:27 - ERROR - spectre.conf - Spectre::Workflow::suspendInstance[387] - WORKFLOW: Workflow instance HMwVOhVuAtM9yEYNrVR6qw has failed to execute 5 times in a row and will no longer attempt to execute.	18:39
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+perlDreamer	hey guys, a quick reminder	19:08
+perlDreamer	please rerun the test suite after making changes to core code	19:08
+perlDreamer	over the last week, most of the Macro tests have been broken	19:08
+perlDreamer	the Session/Scratch test was broken last night	19:08
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Hawkaloogie	PARTY AT JT's HOUSE	19:15
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ckotil	why does the rebuildLineage.pl script fail at? Cleaning up...OK	22:26
ckotil	Don't forget to clear your cache.	22:26
ckotil	DBI connect('webgui;host=127.0.0.1','webgui',...) failed: (no error string) at ../lib/WebGUI/SQL.pm line 318	22:26
ckotil	well i know how to fix it. but i dunno why the parameters dont get passed properly	22:27
ckotil	i have to set...	22:27
ckotil	my $dsn = shift;	22:27
ckotil	my $user = shift;	22:27
ckotil	my $pass = shift;	22:27
ckotil	to the real values.	22:27
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perlm	How's the bug stomping going, Preaction?	22:43
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--- Day changed Wed Nov 08 2006
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perlm	I'm trying to lay out a preliminary architecture for an application based on WebGUI. How do you have the user interact with one asset on a page layout and have the results show up in another asset, in that same page layout, preferrabely with AJAX? Just an idea of the parts of WebGUI which would do this is all I'm asking for.	01:20
perlm	Is there some sort of event handler? A message handler?	01:24
perlm	Or does all asset communication have to be custom developed or through the DB?	01:25
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Radix_	perlm: you can use scratch variables for that purpose	01:27
perlm	But there is no Javascript messaging system where one asset can tell another to update itself via an Ajax request?	01:35
Radix_	no idea sorry	01:37
perlm	Can anyone remember off the top of their head a Macro that interacts with the Session object I can use as example code?	02:06
perlm	Nevermind, it appears most of them do :)	02:07
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perlm	I've learned two things. The session object is not an inside-out object, and from a macro, I have no idea how to gain access to an asset not from the Macro asset (and I can't find any accessor methods in the docs).	03:13
perlm	$session->asset->getId(); # returns an idea different from the Article Asset ID from the Properties page.	03:16
perlm	s/idea/id/	03:16
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Radix-wrk	wow.. we're up to 10 people in this channel (excluding 2 dupes)	04:09
+crythia1	oopsies	04:12
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+perlDreamer	anybody awake tonight?	06:26
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@preaction	ckotil, enact.sonoma.edu?	08:31
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perlm	In a Macro, can you use the session object to access a reference to an asset besides the one the macro was inside of?	17:19
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+crythias	ain't no sunshine when she's gone...	22:46
--- Day changed Thu Nov 09 2006
@preaction	after 6 hours of dealing with the Beaurocracy, I finally get to do some work	00:20
+crythias	mmkay	00:20
+crythias	heh.	00:20
+crythias	I just found out I could get an iMac for $55	00:20
+crythias	oops	00:21
+crythias	Google sends out kama sutra worm	00:21
@preaction	iMac like the desktopp one? the little cute thing?	00:28
+crythias	yeah the old one	00:28
+crythias	http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=IM333-RAS-1B&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-DesktopComputers-_-Apple/MacintoshComputers-_-IM333-RAS-1B	00:30
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@preaction	snapcount, remember what I said about the secret admirers? Frank's got one bad ;)	02:21
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@snapcount	is it a hot chick?	02:22
@preaction	no, it's a Mac OSX junky	02:23
@preaction	i mean, they're never hot	02:23
@preaction	look at JT	02:23
* preaction & back to tedious technical writing		02:23
+crythia1	and that guy from the fly	02:23
+crythia1	http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000156/	02:26
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* DONBH8N ME.		03:38
+DONBH8N	hrm	03:38
+DONBH8N	wonderfulness	03:38
Radix-wrk	?	03:38
+DONBH8N	I can't believe it's not butter.	03:39
+DONBH8N	No, really.	03:39
Radix-wrk	its not.. it's irc	03:39
+DONBH8N	I'm soaking in it.	03:39
+DONBH8N	two great tastes that taste great together.	03:39
+DONBH8N	By Whamo.	03:39
+DONBH8N	Think Different.	03:40
+DONBH8N	good to the last drop.	03:40
Radix-wrk	Don't worry.. there are some men with white coats ready to take you away to your new room.	03:40
+DONBH8N	the quicker picker upper.	03:40
+DONBH8N	It's the economy, stupid.	03:41
+DONBH8N	I'll buy that for a dollar.	03:41
+DONBH8N	Believe it!	03:42
+DONBH8N	It's what's for dinner.	03:42
+DONBH8N	Always.	03:43
Radix-wrk	preaction/snapcount: PB website is broken ;) - "^AssetProxy(pb-redesign-2006/nav);"	03:44
+DONBH8N	yeah, it's bug'd at least twice.	03:45
Radix-wrk	http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help	03:45
Radix-wrk	looks like the collaboration object style is different from the parent page	03:45
+DONBH8N	just.. why is not support contract a link on the um... support page?	03:46
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perlm	Say I've got a data entry asset on a page layout and depending on what the user submits in that asset, I want an article asset with a macro in it to display data based on the submission from the data asset. How does the Macro know the submitted data from the data asset? Does the session object have it? Through the DB?	06:50
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Hawkaloogie	damnit, you have to stay longer than 6 minutes...	07:45
Radix-wrk	I'd love to know the answer myself.. only way I know of is using scratch variables	08:01
Radix-wrk	perlbot help	08:02
perlbot	(fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)	08:02
Radix-wrk	Hmm.. perlbot needs a greet function.. then you could leave him his answer when he next logs in :)	08:03
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@preaction	you could use a scratch variable, you could put a DataForm field containing the user's name (or the user's session, or whatever)	08:46
@preaction	a user profile field even?	08:46
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Radix-wrk	ahh.. neat.. hadnt thought of those	09:47
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maxscience	hi	12:16
maxscience	I need help :)	12:16
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Radix_	ask.. and wait	12:46
Radix_	we're all on diff time zones here.. so you may have to wait a bit.. but be patient and ye will be rewarded ;)	12:46
maxscience	:P	13:21
maxscience	http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help/errors-upgrading-from-7_1_3-to-7_2_0	13:22
maxscience	http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/errors-upgrading-from-7_1_3	13:22
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Radix_	maxscience, Sorry.. not done an upgrade to 7.13 yet, let alone 7.20 - waiting for it to all stabilise first before I upgrade our server here	16:28
maxscience	:(	16:28
maxscience	But do you know how to manually force missing parts of the upgrade to rerun?	16:29
Radix_	safer to roll back and redo it	16:29
Radix_	try manually rm -rf /tmp/WebGUICache first	16:30
maxscience	I manually copied the backed up WebGUI dir over the new one and rerun the update. But it said no updates were necessary	16:30
Radix_	Personally though.. I'd wait until 7.2 goes stable again.. and not bother until then	16:30
Radix_	err.. you need to restore the database too	16:30
Radix_	or did you copy the entire /data dir?	16:31
maxscience	yeah! But till now I supposed that the webguiupdate script of the WRE did also backup the database...	16:31
maxscience	it doesn't?	16:31
maxscience	no I just copied the WebGUI dir	16:31
Radix_	that doesn't include the database then	16:31
Radix_	the database is in /data/wre/prereqs/mysql	16:32
Radix_	ideally you should have a mysqldump of it as well as your /data/ dir backup	16:32
maxscience	yeah I know but I didn't manually backup the database because I thought webguiupdate script did it	16:32
Radix_	it does.. but I forget offhand where it puts it..	16:32
maxscience	mmh :( When it ask where to backup, it's /data/wre/var	16:33
Radix_	I've never relied on the webgui update backup.. always done my own	16:34
Radix_	it stores them in /tmp/backups	16:36
Radix_	unless you specify another dir to put them in	16:36
Radix_	well.. that's the perl upgrade script anyway.. the wre backup is stored where you specify it	16:37
maxscience	and the wre backup does mysql backups too?	16:37
Radix_	the wre update script only seems to copy the /data/WebGUI/etc dir to the dir you specify	16:38
Radix_	it runs the normal perl upgrade script tho.. so it should've made db backups in /tmp/backups	16:38
Radix_	of course if you've rebooted since.. your /tmp dir may have been wiped clean already	16:39
maxscience	no it's there hopefully! mydomain_com_7.1.3.sql	16:39
Radix_	cool :)	16:40
Radix_	restore that sql then.. and hopefully you'll get your old db back	16:40
maxscience	so now I just have to drop the actual mysql db and reload it with the .sql file?	16:40
Radix_	that's what I'd do.. it might drop them automatically in the sql file tho	16:40
maxscience	ok thx :)	16:41
Radix_	np	16:41
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@preaction	7.2.1 should be more stable than 7.1.3, and the attitude of "i'll update when it's stable" hurts stability, because it won't get run on a whole bunch of different system until it's "stable", and it won't be stable until it can run on a whole bunch of different systems	17:25
@preaction	but the decision to tag "stable" is JT's, so we'll leave it to him	17:25
ckotil	should i upgrade if im taking a site live tomorrow? currently on 7.1.3	17:44
@preaction	it works now? if i were you i wouldn't. i'd Always (whether tagged "stable" or not) update the dev server and test before bringing live	17:54
@preaction	if it works now, and you're releasing tomorrow, i'd wait, do the release, and then update the dev server and see how the latest goes with your site	17:54
@preaction	basically every week, or every couple weeks, keep your dev server updated, then when you can, update production	17:55
@preaction	you'll have to figure out a routine for moving the wG source and running the sbin/upgrade.pl script	17:56
crythia3	grr	18:09
crythia3	look, I [think I] understand linear upgrade path, but ... seriously? 20 bug fixes in a Beta doesn't inspire confidence.	18:11
maxscience	indeed	18:12
crythia3	I wonder what's a better business decision/model: dump whatever the heck or do custom programming for the people who want it/pay for it, and let the stable-users get.. oh, I don't know.. stable releases?	18:13
crythia3	why the heck do we bother with beta releases? Why not simply tell people to get the latest svn nightly build?	18:14
maxscience	a better decision model would just be to be nice to users reporting bugs and giving feedback instead than yelling at them... Those nerds need to go to the countryside a little bit lol	18:27
ckotil	kthx	18:29
ckotil	ill bring up the dev server to 7.2	18:29
ckotil	;]	18:29
ckotil	most people know what a beta is. a small fraction know about nightly svn builds	18:31
crythia3	and the difference to people who actually run WebGUI in production is...?	18:38
maxscience	the result is that I have my install screwed up now...	19:01
perlm	when you hit submit in one asset, is there anyway for another asset to see what was submitted via the API, or must the DB be checked?	19:19
perlm	If I shouldn't be asking these questions here, would someone let me know?	19:44
ckotil	this is good place to ask. it just takes time to get answers	19:44
ckotil	plainblack support forum is goo dtoo	19:45
ckotil	i just dont know the answer ;]	19:45
perlm	thanks ckotil, I just didn't want it to be the case where everyone was quietly ignoring me hoping I'd go away.	19:46
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jZed	hi, I am wanting to play with WebGui on my home debian etch box that already has a ton of perl / apache / mysl stuff ...	20:25
jZed	can I install the WRE but leave my existing installs intact?	20:25
perlm	I was under the impression that the WRE was a seperate Perl env.	20:31
jZed	so maybe install debian on a different partition and put webgui there?	20:31
perlm	But WebGUI doesn't interfer with your current install. It may require additional CPAN modules, but you don't have to change Perl params.	20:31
perlm	the biggest problem you might have is with the virtual host settings in Apache.	20:32
perlm	Luckily I have two domains pointing at my server and had WebGUI answer the surplus one. But you can hax that by editing your /etc/hosts file.	20:32
jZed	WRE won't mess with paths etc so it will use its own perl and @INC and I can keep using my other perl installs	20:33
jZed	hmm, couldn't I just have my current apache on port 80 and stick the webgui apache on some other port?	20:33
ckotil	yes	20:33
perlm	I am not positive as I didn't install it. I'm new to WebGUI myself, so can't really answer that.	20:34
ckotil	simply edit the webgui.conf file in/data/etc	20:34
jZed	cool	20:34
perlm	run two instances of apache? sure, that would work to	20:34
perlm	but virtual hosts are much more sexy	20:35
jZed	ok, so as long as I have my configs right, I can put webgui in the same partition, and not have it interfere with either my current perl or apache setup?	20:35
jZed	yeah, sure virtual hosts	20:35
perlm	I'm running WebGUI on my server in a virtual host and it has zero effect on the many other webapps I'm also running.	20:40
jZed	ok, that answers the apache side, what about perl, do you have multiple perls?	20:41
jZed	.oO(I suppose from your nick, you do)	20:43
jZed	webgui sounds like it scales, anyone know the heaviest-traffic / most complex site using it?	20:45
jZed	the success stories on plainBlack seem to be small to medium sites	20:47
perlm	it is mod_perl. I imagine you'd be mem bound before you'd be CPU bound. Which means you should know about SQUID :)	21:04
perlm	I only have one instance of Perl (5.8.8) which everything shares happily.	21:04
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@preaction	jZed, currently a place called DonorWare is running an slew of virtual hosts using wG on a server farm. they're using db caching, nfs mounts, and load balancers.	21:07
@preaction	i believe they have a load sharing between two servers running about 10 sites + 9 ssl versions	21:09
@preaction	i've watched, httpd only gets above 5% CPU load when it's restarting, otherwise a calm 2-3%	21:09
@preaction	i don't know the specs on those boxen though	21:10
perlm	WebGUI has an easy to use performance feature. It will show you how long it took to render a page. So you can do some testing of your own.	21:11
perlm	have multiple LWP bots traverse your site and track the page load time to get a metric.	21:12
@preaction	there's a program called "siege" that can do that for you	21:12
perlm	nice	21:12
perlm	okay, I've got to head into the office for a meeting. Laters	21:13
@preaction	have fun	21:13
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jZed	great, thanks for the pointer to DonorWare	21:21
jZed	btw, I got a strong recommendation to use webgui from one of the top developers in Venezuela! so kudos.	21:22
@preaction	it is the awesome, and as the newest developer hired by plainblack, i intend to make it more the awesome	21:28
@preaction	plus with these more developers, roy can work less on support and more on making the awesome	21:29
jZed	looks like a fantastic project	21:32
@preaction	it is, i'm ecstatic that i'm getting paid to be a part of it ;)	21:33
jZed	congrats!	21:33
@preaction	there's the tedious crap, like trying to upgrade donorware since they INSIST on using the 6.2 and 6.8 versions :p	21:33
@preaction	(so your 7.1 or 7.2 should be even faster than donorware's)	21:34
jZed	nice, I won't need performance right away but I gotta know it will scale really big	21:34
jZed	it looks fairly easy to make plugins too, that will be important	21:35
@preaction	yes, there are provided skeletons, and the list of required methods is very small	21:35
@preaction	something you might get tripped up on is the way wG implements content-chunking (apache bit-buckets)	21:36
@preaction	the prepareView / View / www_view methods	21:36
@preaction	but that's what we're here for, the forums are there for, etc...	21:36
jZed	yeah, community is the key	21:37
jZed	in the past I've rolled my own with Mason but this looks like it provides more out of the box but is still extensible	21:38
jZed	any reason it isn't on CPAN?	21:39
@preaction	configuration handling is the biggest thing. it will draw, process, and provide accessors for whatever configuration you want	21:39
@preaction	that's a good question actually, maybe because it's on sourceforge	21:39
jZed	I have stuff on both (i.e. the same stuff on both)	21:40
@preaction	maybe because there's already a slew of them on cpan? i dunno man	21:41
jZed	I recommend it	21:41
@preaction	maybe just lost in the shuffle	21:41
@preaction	but it would be more publicity (and we seem to be getting a bunch these days)	21:41
jZed	that way if I get involved my team and I can contribute plugins the standard CPAN way	21:42
@preaction	maybe that's why: it takes the namespaces out of plainblack control	21:42
jZed	but I'm just kibbitzing :-)	21:42
@preaction	there's nothing, of course, preventing you from doing that...	21:42
@preaction	hmm... i should write a post to the dev list about it	21:42
@preaction	or maybe look through the archives, someone might've suggested it already	21:43
jZed	you could do something like DBI does ... Tim assigns prefixes for DBD authors, only the assigned prefixes are guaranteed to work	21:43
@preaction	DBIx and DBDx	21:43
@preaction	i get it	21:43
@preaction	WebGUIx	21:43
jZed	yeah something like that	21:43
@preaction	would make contributing custom stuff that much easier, the current plainblack site has contributions, none of which are newer than a few years	21:44
jZed	I haven't looked, is the database stuff straight DBI or Class::DBI ror DBIx::Class?	21:45
jZed	or your own?	21:45
@preaction	it's a wrapper on DBI	21:45
@preaction	WebGUI only support MySQL, so it's almost superfluous to use DBI	21:46
jZed	does it provide db objects?	21:46
@preaction	it's in there somewhere, if there's a well-documented accessor for it, dunno	21:47
@preaction	might be a $wGsql->{_dbh} sort of thing	21:47
jZed	no, I don't mean getting the database handle object, I mean objects for tables etc. ala Class::DBI	21:48
@preaction	no, straight SQL / DBI stuff	21:48
@preaction	you could use Class::DBI though	21:48
jZed	personally, I'm a straight DBI guy but some of the other team prefer the Object wrappers/mappers	21:49
@preaction	i prefer my own wrapper that provides generic get/set/find/delete methods (the find method is unbelievably complex, taken from DBIx::Abstract iirc)	21:50
@preaction	but since most DBs are layed out with a key for each row, all you need are those four functions	21:50
jZed	DBIx::Abstract++	21:51
@preaction	indeed	21:51
@preaction	admittedly: i have to do two calls for normal search functions, a find() and a get() (because find() only returns IDs)	21:51
@preaction	but find() could be modified to accept a columns => parameter	21:52
@preaction	anyway, that's in a past-life, when I wrote my own webapp framework	21:52
jZed	yeah, or presumably we could subclass your Database.pm and roll our own	21:52
@preaction	(which surprisingly is a lot like wG was in its infancy)	21:52
@preaction	that also	21:52
@preaction	you just increase your dependencies	21:52
jZed	how are sessions handled? in the db or memcached?	21:53
@preaction	i'm of the type who hates dependencies, even though wG currently has a whole lot of them	21:53
@preaction	db	21:53
jZed	yeah, I agree about dependencies	21:53
jZed	but I'm gonna have some specific and heavy database needs	21:54
@preaction	that's another thing i wanted to take a look at, opening sessions is currently the most costly operation wG does often	21:54
jZed	we had problems with sessions data swamping the db previously	21:54
@preaction	sometimes a single page load can cause three or four sessions to be opened (for various functions)	21:54
@preaction	actually, i'm not sure about that. they might be cached somewhere	21:56
@preaction	i mean, it's mod_perl, so we're technically stateful, so we can keep info like that in memory	21:57
@preaction	maybe that's why Apache2::SizeLimit is a requirement, the session memory cache gets too large	21:57
jZed	my CTO is asking about blogs, got a URL I can point hm to?	22:00
@preaction	start a demo site from http://demo.plainblack.com, create a Collaboration System wobject, and choose the "Blog Layout" under Collaboration System Layout in the Display Tab	22:01
@preaction	the collab system can do just about any forum-style, thread-like type of site	22:01
jZed	cool, thanks	22:02
@preaction	(or something like that, I'm not good with the off-the-cuff answers yet)	22:03
jZed	ok, well we got lost in creating the collab thing, might want a screenshot of a blog on the site	22:13
jZed	looks amazing though	22:14
jZed	can't figure out how to display the blog once it's created, oh well I can muddle through ...	22:15
jZed	oh there it is	22:15
@preaction	i believe that new wobjects are hidden from navigation by default, that's on the display tab iirc	22:18
@preaction	otherwise the navigation usually fills in new assets/wobjects automagically	22:18
jZed	yeah, I found the display tab and then the new, and then remembered to scroll down on the news page :-)	22:19
jZed	I'm better at designing these things than using 'em :-)	22:20
@preaction	likewise	22:20
@preaction	remember too, that your demo is active for 24 hours, but if you log out without committing the new collab system, your visitors wont see it	22:21
@preaction	the committing version tags thing still throws me	22:21
jZed	yeah I committed	22:21
@preaction	http://tryruby.hobix.com/ <- why doesn't Perl have something awesome like this?	22:21
* preaction wants Perl6 in the worst possible way		22:21
jZed	um, you could write that app in a one-liner in perl, it isn't on the web because it would be too easy for someone to shoot themselves in the foot :-)	22:22
@preaction	nono, i meant more of the tutorial thing	22:23
@preaction	the walk-through, interactive tutorial	22:23
jZed	oh, haven't tried that	22:23
@preaction	type "help" into it	22:23
@preaction	it walks you through it	22:23
jZed	oh, that is nice	22:23
@preaction	a javascript frontend, with an ajax call to a perl interpreter	22:29
@preaction	prebuilt module objects	22:29
@preaction	hmm... something to put in my notebook of WONDERFUL IDEAS	22:29
jZed	I'd use it	22:35
@preaction	if i build it awesomely enough, it could be used for perl6 as well	22:35
@preaction	but i have a whole EventsCalendar to rewrite first	22:35
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jZed	you could write a webgui interactive demo for it (combine them $ and WONDERFUL IDEAS, best of both worlds)	22:39
@preaction	that'd be flash, i can't develop flash because i can't afford it (and i run ubuntu, no good flash tools for linux yet)	22:40
jZed	yep	22:40
@preaction	but, wG and plainblack are active in the local perl communities, i'm sure one of their sites would like it, perhaps madmongers, or this new whyperl site i saw JT and steve discussing the other day	22:41
jZed	you could add in some of the perlmonks chatterbox widgets like perldoc://function_name	22:42
jZed	or cpan://module_name	22:42
@preaction	this is getting to be some sort of new hotness site	22:42
@preaction	nah, there's already annocpan	22:43
@preaction	annocpan rules, and needs more contributers	22:43
@preaction	in fact, to be honest, the entire perl website community needs to be updated for "WEB 2.0" (buzzword is hilariously ironic)	22:44
@preaction	it's almost like Perl is an old-man's tool :(	22:44
jZed	you're preaching to the choir, my last gig was 80% AJAX and 20% Perl	22:44
jZed	JSON rules	22:44
@preaction	i'm not hooked on JSON yet, why not yaml or something?	22:45
@preaction	JSON is ... cranky... an extra , will set it off	22:46
jZed	because your perl backend can send JSON to an AJAX callback and the callback has a JavaScript structure it can pour into a display widget wtihout messing with any decoding	22:46
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jZed	you basically write all your JavaScript structures in perl	22:47
@preaction	or you could use XML / XSL / and XPath	22:47
@preaction	WebGUI has just started using Yui as a standard JS library, so there should be all sorts of fun things we can do with ajax and the like now	22:47
jZed	no no no, then you have to do something with it to get it into JavaScript	22:47
@preaction	okay, i get it now	22:47
jZed	I mean, sure there are uses for XML but lots of stuff you don't need that step	22:48
@preaction	you'd have to have a JS function that would use those DOM tools to get things	22:48
jZed	no, suppose you have a JS display widget that expects an AOH, you create the AOH in perl, wrap it in JSON with one line and send it to the callback whch just hands it to the widget	22:49
jZed	no parsing or DOM walking at all	22:49
@preaction	exactly	22:50
@preaction	i was saying that, instead of using json, you'd have to do what i said	22:50
@preaction	which is more work	22:50
jZed	ah, I see, right	22:50
@preaction	anyway, seriously, i have to rewrite wG's events calendar (which currently is the suck) and I have 11 days to do it (but it will be completely the awesome)	22:52
* preaction & working		22:52
jZed	excellent, I need that, if you want a tester, email me at jzucker@cpan.org	22:53
jZed	thanks for all the info	22:53
@preaction	np	22:53
@preaction	i need to get my new server, so i can have a web-facing dev server again	22:54
@preaction	no, no no, i must not IRC, i must not IM, i must WORK... good gravy i'm easily distracted	22:54
jZed	same here, talk to you later	22:54
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jZe1	do you folks have a bug-tracking system somewhere or should I file it here?	23:44
jZe1	this page http://www.plainblack.com/wre/installing says to decompress the binary but when you run /sbin/setup it asks "Please type the path to the file" : a) you should mention which file and b) it is expecting an compressed wre-version.tar.gz not an uncompressed one like in the docs	23:47
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--- Day changed Fri Nov 10 2006
@preaction	rizen, durnit, now you got me curious...	00:00
@rizen	sorry about that	00:08
@rizen	is anyone actually here	00:09
@rizen	or is everyone just squatting?	00:09
@preaction	yes'm	00:09
@preaction	i shouldn't be, i should be working	00:10
jZe1	I'm an outsider in the middle of an install, if you folks wants some privacy I'll leave	00:10
@preaction	nono, this is community place	00:10
jZe1	thanks	00:10
@preaction	i dunno why chanserv autoops me, the freenode way is usually ops only appear when something goes very wrong	00:10
@preaction	and i think only roy and/or rizen have the real chanserv access	00:11
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jZed	when sbin/setup asks "Please type the path to the file" what file does it want?	00:18
@preaction	that's a good question, lemme see	00:18
@rizen	the full path to the webgui-x.x.x-stable.tar.gz	00:19
@rizen	that you've supposedly already downloaded	00:19
@rizen	because you chose not to get it from a mirror	00:19
jZed	right, but in order to run sbin/setup, you've already unpacked the tar.gz	00:19
@preaction	jZed, it doesn't have the WebGUI part, just the WRE	00:19
@rizen	yes, the WRE and WebGUI are two seperate systems	00:20
jZed	so it wants e.g /data/wre or /data/wre-version.tar.gz	00:20
@rizen	the WRE doesn't come with WebGUI	00:20
@rizen	no	00:20
@rizen	it doesn't want the path to the WRE	00:20
@rizen	it wants the path to WebGUI	00:20
@preaction	jZed, no, it wants webgui-7.1.3-stable.tar.gz or whatever	00:20
@rizen	rather a webgui tarball	00:20
jZed	I went to the site, i clicked download, it sent me to wre-version.tar.gz	00:22
jZed	neither it nor the install instructions refer to a webgui...tar.gz	00:22
@rizen	since you arent' listening to what we've told you	00:23
@rizen	then the best way i can help you is to tell you to start over	00:23
@rizen	delete the /data/wre folder	00:23
@rizen	decomrpress again	00:23
@rizen	and when you run setup this time	00:23
@rizen	just chose mirror	00:23
@rizen	don't choose local	00:24
jZed	ok, but I still don't see any webgui.tar.gz :-)	00:24
jZed	thanks	00:25
@rizen	forget it	00:26
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@preaction	you'll download it when you choose "mirror"	00:28
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@preaction	and the reason you have to delete / reinstall is because the setup script is borked. that's why the WRE is in the 0.* series	00:28
jZed	no problem	00:28
@preaction	the WRE is also completely JT's domain for now, the rest of us have too much on our plates with wG proper	00:29
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+MrHairgrease	roy	16:05
+MrHairgrease	or doug	16:06
+MrHairgrease	are you guys there?	16:06
Radix_	hi martin.. ain't heard from him in a while	16:07
Radix_	last thing he said was about 14 hours ago	16:08
+MrHairgrease	ah	16:11
+MrHairgrease	that explains something =)	16:11
+MrHairgrease	is anybody using the latest svn checkout?	16:11
+MrHairgrease	or 7.2.1?	16:12
Radix_	not me	16:12
+MrHairgrease	ok	16:12
Radix_	I was going to ask a question too..	16:12
+MrHairgrease	the admin bar won't show up	16:12
+MrHairgrease	so I wondering if it's broken	16:12
+MrHairgrease	or if I'm just being dumb =)	16:12
+MrHairgrease	what is it?	16:12
Radix_	anyone using the rss syndication to show up flickr rss feeds? - it seems to stop after the first <p> section ends..	16:12
+MrHairgrease	no	16:13
+MrHairgrease	not me	16:13
Radix_	might have to look at the code.. see if I can figure out why	16:13
+MrHairgrease	do you have a url to the feed?	16:13
Radix_	http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?id=90355682@N00&format=rss_200	16:13
+MrHairgrease	yeah that's the way to go =)	16:14
Radix_	that's the one I'm using.. my photo collection :)	16:14
+MrHairgrease	ok	16:14
+MrHairgrease	I'll have a look later this day	16:14
Radix_	it stops after 'posted a photo</p>' and never puts the photo	16:14
Radix_	cool	16:15
+MrHairgrease	It might be due to the fact that the xml parser also parses the html tags	16:15
+MrHairgrease	i'm not sure	16:15
+MrHairgrease	but I can imagine that it is something like that	16:15
Radix_	yeah.. I suspect so too.. though I wouldn't know how to fix it if it was :)	16:16
+MrHairgrease	me neither	16:16
+MrHairgrease	I never looked at that code	16:17
+MrHairgrease	If you can't fix it, just file a bug report =)	16:17
Radix_	_strip_html($rss) - hmm.. that'd rip out all the img tags and what not.. bet that's what's doing it	16:22
+MrHairgrease	yeah	16:26
+MrHairgrease	it sounds like that anyway	16:26
Radix_	yup	16:27
+MrHairgrease	you could try to comment thet function	16:27
+MrHairgrease	and check if it works	16:27
Radix_	going to give it a try.. but not on our production server.. and I just wiped my laptop to play with windows vista (that was my test server).. hehe	16:28
+MrHairgrease	that's a wise decission	16:28
+MrHairgrease	=)	16:29
Radix_	heh	16:29
+MrHairgrease	ah fixed it	16:34
+MrHairgrease	someone borked WebGUI::User	16:35
Radix_	okey.. grub restored, and ubuntu back up on my laptop.. time to give syndicatedcontent.pm a hack :)	16:57
Radix_	Hmm.. if I rip that bit out.. then it keeps the html.. but spits it out as text in the feed. converts all the < and > to &lt's and &gt's even	17:06
+MrHairgrease	oh that sucks	17:07
+MrHairgrease	I don't have time to look into it	17:08
+MrHairgrease	sry	17:08
Radix_	no probs :)	17:08
+MrHairgrease	i know =)	17:08
Radix_	I'll have a further play with it.. bout time I started hacking webgui more anyway	17:08
+MrHairgrease	it's fun	17:09
+MrHairgrease	you can win prizes with it =)	17:09
* MrHairgrease pats himeself on the back		17:09
Radix_	heh	17:09
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@snapcount	what is borked in wg::user?	17:39
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+MrHairgrease	nothing special	17:41
+MrHairgrease	check the latest rev in svn	17:41
@snapcount	is it that IP restricting admin console thingy	17:42
+MrHairgrease	yes	17:45
+MrHairgrease	i didn't have the setting in my conf	17:45
+MrHairgrease	and the admin bar errored	17:45
@snapcount	the upgrade script should have put a default one there	17:45
+MrHairgrease	it should	17:45
@snapcount	hehe	17:45
+MrHairgrease	but if you are running a dev environment	17:46
@snapcount	WebGUI should do many things =)	17:46
+MrHairgrease	that's true	17:46
+MrHairgrease	most people won't notice it	17:46
+MrHairgrease	but it's cleaner this way	17:46
+MrHairgrease	the thing was that the setting was put in in the 7.14->7.20	17:47
+MrHairgrease	but I updated	17:47
+MrHairgrease	did a previousVersion.sql	17:47
+MrHairgrease	and upgraded essentially from 7.2.0 ->7.2.1	17:47
+MrHairgrease	so it was never run on my env	17:47
+MrHairgrease	well	17:47
+MrHairgrease	it doesn't matter that much	17:47
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jZed	whaaaa! my apache-fu is not as strong as my perl-fu and I have run the WRE install perhaps 50 times in the last day and still get stumped at mod_perl failed to start, mod_proxy failed to start, Spectre failed to start :-(	18:21
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jZed	hey, at least I got the WRE MySQL working	18:22
jZed	I read some forum messages about people with the same problem but not solutions	18:22
jZed	docs say to check /data/wre/prereqs/apache/logs but there is no such directory since (I believe) apache isn't starting so there are no logs	18:23
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Radix_	only issue I've ever had with wre mysql was when permissions were not set	18:30
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jZed	MySQL is working fine, it's mod_perl that won't start	18:30
jZed	and I don't even know how to troubleshoot since there are no logs	18:30
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Radix_	check logs in /data/wre/var	18:30
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Radix_	well.. webgui log is there anyway	18:31
jZed	yes, it's there and 0 bites since rc.webgui start failed	18:31
jZed	bytes	18:31
Radix_	other logs are in /data/wre/prereqs/apache/logs	18:31
Radix_	try creating the dir if it doesn't exist	18:31
Radix_	that might be why it's failing to run even	18:32
jZed	aha! there is wremonitor.log	18:32
jZed	it says bad hostname ':'	18:32
jZed	so I guess the hostname is not being set	18:33
jZed	I am just using localhost since this is my box and no DNS	18:33
Radix_	wremonitor has always been pretty useless for me.. never used it.. still waiting on a newer wre with a fixed wremonitor myself.	18:33
Radix_	edit /etc/hosts and add your hostnames there	18:34
jZed	yeah, already did that as per the docs	18:34
Radix_	ie. 127.0.0.1 localhost www.mycompany.com mycompany.com	18:34
jZed	docs say dev.localhost.domain	18:34
jZed	and wre setup seems to stick the dev. on there	18:35
Radix_	wierd.. I don't recall that.. and my wre setup didn't	18:35
jZed	well, hmm, now I get during setup ... Configuring WebGUI...	18:37
jZed	Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at ./setup line 159.	18:37
jZed	Bad arg length for Socket::inet_ntoa, length is 0, should be 4 at ./setup line 159.	18:37
jZed	btw, thanks much for your help	18:37
Radix_	type 'which perl'	18:38
Radix_	is it returning the /data/wre/prereqs/perl one? or another copy of perl somewhere?	18:39
jZed	the script should be, my command line is for another perl	18:39
jZed	yeah the script shebang points at the WRE perl	18:39
jZed	I've verified that thought they're both 5.8.8 only the wre one has the wre @INCS	18:40
Radix_	if you don't set up your environment right though - it won't use the wre perl libraries properly	18:40
Radix_	hence why I asked you to type 'which perl'	18:41
jZed	which perl is /usr/local/bin/perl	18:41
Radix_	the wre is far from perfect.. if you use it right it's great, but there are still bugs and gaps	18:41
Radix_	biggest one is that not all the scripts set their environment properly	18:42
jZed	yeah and it would be cleaner if I had an extra partition instead of trying to install where I already have perls, mysql, apache, etc	18:42
Radix_	best way to fix this is to use ". /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment" before you run ANY wre scripts	18:42
Radix_	it's the only way you can be sure they'll run right	18:42
jZed	ah, ok, let me try that, thanks	18:42
Radix_	note that the space between the dot and the path is deliberate	18:42
Radix_	. /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment	18:43
jZed	of course it will probably screw up my mason, python, and php stuff, oh well	18:43
Radix_	no, shouldn't	18:43
jZed	oh good :-)	18:43
Radix_	except any other copy of apache you'll need to run on another port address (other than 80/81)	18:43
+crythias	well..	18:44
+crythias	you don't have to.	18:44
+crythias	I mean, yes, you do..	18:44
Radix_	?	18:44
+crythias	but you can virtualhost lots of stuff...	18:44
+crythias	different configs per site.	18:45
Radix_	yeah, but getting php working for the wre is a bitch	18:45
+crythias	oh.	18:45
+crythias	:(	18:45
Radix_	pardon my french	18:45
+crythias	bummer.	18:45
Radix_	mod_php is not included in the distro	18:45
+crythias	I never tried.	18:45
jZed	I think I'll try to get webgui working then later I can import parts of my old apache conf into it	18:45
Radix_	so you need to compile it manually	18:45
jZed	bleh, I think I'll stick with two apaches on two ports	18:46
Radix_	easier to simply run another apache with mod_php on another port and mod_proxy it in	18:46
Radix_	you can use the wre mod_proxy to link to it.. and mod-rewrite rules to transparently hide it all so it seems like it's all on one server	18:46
jZed	hrm, did the setenvironment thing, still getting Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at ./setup line 159.	18:47
jZed	Bad arg length for Socket::inet_ntoa, length is 0, should be 4 at ./setup line 159.	18:47
jZed	line 159 is looking for gethostname()	18:47
Radix_	you didn't script up your localhost entry in /etc/hosts when you edited it by any chance?	18:47
jZed	no, but hostname reports a different name	18:48
jZed	maybe that's it	18:48
Radix_	hostname must be in /etc/hosts	18:48
jZed	can I re-load /etc/hosts without rebooting?	18:49
Radix_	sure	18:49
Radix_	just edit it and that's it	18:50
jZed	hmm but I put a different hostname in and it still shows the old one	18:50
Radix_	edit /etc/hostname?	18:51
Radix_	or reboot?	18:51
jZed	edited but didn't reboot	18:51
jZed	/etc/hosts shows 127.0.0.1 dev dev.localhost.localdomain	18:53
jZed	guess Imma reboot, thanks for the tips, back soon	18:57
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jZed__	this little script sure comes in handy: rm /data/wre/var/hoster.arg.cache; rm /data/wre/var/version.txt; rm -r /data/We\bGUI; /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment; /data/wre/sbin/setup	19:47
jZed__	well now mod_proxy starts but mod_perl and Spectre still don't	19:48
jZed__	allright, I manually created /data/wre/etc and /data/wre/prereqs/apache/logs which weren't there and now at least I have logs to look at	20:00
jZed__	so I see this in modperl.error.log:	20:01
jZed__	Cannot load /data/wre/prereqs/apache/modules/mod_apreq2.so into server: libapreq2.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory	20:01
@preaction	jZed__, sounds like your wre install has a major problem	20:05
jZed__	yeah, I've been working on it since yesterday	20:05
jZed__	getting frustrated	20:05
jZed__	must have run setup 75 times	20:05
jZed__	at least now I have apache logs which I didn't before	20:05
@preaction	which one did you download?	20:05
jZed__	7.1.3-stable	20:06
@preaction	that's not the WRE	20:06
jZed__	oh, just a sec	20:06
@preaction	there are TWO THINGS. one is the WRE, the other is WebGUI	20:06
@preaction	i don't care about version, i want to know platform	20:06
jZed__	oh debian	20:06
jZed__	yes, I understand about the two things now	20:07
jZed__	wre is just the other apps and an install script	20:07
@preaction	do you know how to install .deb packages manually? you don't need the WRE, it's just ... more convenient (when it's done)	20:07
jZed__	is there a url to get the webgui directly, I can't see that listed anywhere so only way I can get it is via mirror	20:07
jZed__	during setup	20:07
jZed__	sure I can install debs	20:08
@preaction	http://www.webgui.org	20:08
@preaction	are you following the docs/install.txt instructions?	20:12
jZed__	yep	20:12
jZed__	every step	20:12
@preaction	you don't have existing apache2 or mysql or otherwise installs?	20:12
@preaction	you're running setenvironment before you try to start/restart wG?	20:13
jZed__	yes I have perl and apache2 and mysql but I made sure to turn them all off	20:13
jZed__	yes I'm running setenvironment	20:13
@preaction	you're root	20:13
jZed__	yep	20:14
@preaction	you could configure your existing installs to work with WebGUI	20:14
jZed__	just swap in the conf files?	20:14
@preaction	http://www.plainblack.com/installing_webgui	20:15
@preaction	no, i would not do that	20:15
@preaction	read the link, follow that	20:15
jZed__	ok thanks for all your help	20:15
@preaction	you'll need to apt-get install perl-magick (or something similar)	20:16
@preaction	there are other dependencies too	20:16
@preaction	i think they're all covered by the link, but you'll have to find them in APT	20:16
jZed__	oh I have all the perl prereqs	20:17
@preaction	then you'll also need to create an init.d script for spectre	20:17
@preaction	you may be able to get away with moving the rc.spectre from the WRE into /etc/init.d/, but you may have to look in and edit it	20:18
jZed__	ok, I can handle that	20:18
jZed__	fortunately, like most perl stuff, difficulty of installation does not necessarily bod difficulty of use, thank god	20:19
@preaction	that's what the WRE is supposed to fix... but imho it'd be better to provide a .deb that had the appropriate dependencies	20:22
@preaction	gentoo actually has an emerge version of wG that automatically pulls in dependencies, dunno how it is on setup though	20:22
jZed__	well I was wrong about having all the prereqs, I'd thought that installing Catalyst pulled in everything on CPAN, but webgui needs even more	20:39
jZed__	but testEnvironment.pl is doing a good job of getting everything	20:40
jZed__	grr, my absolute least favorit cpan.pm error : test died because of failure of pod coverage # for kripes sakes let us install even if your pod sucks	20:59
jZed__	Graphics::ColorNames	20:59
+crythias	force install	21:22
jZed__	oh sure, did that	21:22
jZed__	all the perl stuff eventually installed	21:22
jZed__	I've got webgui to start	21:22
jZed__	but now i can't seem to get to the admin login	21:23
jZed__	it should just point at dev.localhost.localdomain if that's in my domains/.conf	21:24
jZed__	hmm, WebGUI starts, I can get to my old apache directories, I can't get to the WebGui directory, must have messed something up in virtual hosts	21:29
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jZed__	hrm, closer and closer ... now when I point at the webgui domain dir, I get "Fatal Internal Error"	21:36
jZed__	must be some sort of Spectre or WebGui error because it doesn't look like a regular Apache one	21:36
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jZed__	w00000000000000000t!	22:08
jZed__	webgui is installed, the install from source was much easier than WRE	22:09
jZed__	thanks everyone for your help	22:09
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jZed__	installation done, configuration next ... hmm it wants css03.css but there is no such file or it can't find it, so I can't see the admin panel etc. cause no CSS unhides it	22:58
jZed__	ah no, it's the /extras CSS it can't find, I probably need an alias in apache.conf	23:04
perlm	did you move the extras to your config instance?	23:05
jZed__	no	23:08
jZed__	but this fixes it in apache.conf: Alias /extras/ "/data/WebGUI/www/extras/"	23:08
jZed__	or should I copy extras into /domains/public?	23:08
perlm	yeah, that apache.conf edit sounds like a hack	23:10
jZed__	the page is very confusing without the css	23:10
jZed__	:-)	23:10
jZed__	but everything is cool, I have webgui and my old PHP and Mason stuff all running off the same port	23:11
perlm	your domainname.conf in the /WebGUI/etc dir should have "extrasURL" : "/extras", and "extrasPath" : "/data/WebGUI/www/extras",	23:11
jZed__	yep those are there	23:13
jZed__	oh well, this works for now	23:15
perlm	are you using a virtual host? You should have DocumentRoot /data/WebGUI/domains/www.yourdomain.com/public	23:15
jZed__	yep	23:16
perlm	that is strange....../extras should map to /data/WebGUI/domains/www.yourdomain.com/public/extras	23:16
perlm	without the alias...oh well	23:16
perlm	holy smokes, I think I just counted 100 individual connections to the server to load an asset configuration page.	23:20
jZed__	it wasn't me :-)	23:41
jZed__	"You are currently working under a tag called: None"?	23:46
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@preaction	how does the <tmpl_var controls> parameter get populated? i can't seem to find a single wobject that does it	04:36
-!- preaction changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable: WebGUI 7.1.3) \|\| Need help? Ask and wait patiently (it might take awhile)		04:43
+crythia1	hrm	05:35
+crythia1	preaction you still there?	05:35
* crythia1 is bringin' sexy back.		05:35
@preaction	i'm back now, had to make food	05:48
@preaction	found it... $self->getToolbar	05:53
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preaction-m	damnit roy, get your ass back here	05:16
Radix-wrk	You just want his ass?	05:17
preaction-m	you don't?	05:17
Radix-wrk	No wait.. don't answer that	05:17
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Radix-wrk	PB webpages are still broken btw.. - https://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help	07:37
Radix-wrk	getting a ^AssetProxy(pb-redesign-2006/nav); on the side there	07:37
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perlm	so what's new at PlainBlack this week?	17:55
perlm	Does anyone know what this means from my /var/log/webgui.log " WORKFLOW: Response for babWLAT6BW20Qv8869RwbQ was redirected"?	18:09
ckotil	not entirely. all i can get from it is that a workflow process was redirected	18:11
perlm	The rest of the message says "This should never happen if configured correctly."	18:13
ckotil	heh	18:13
perlm	I'm trying to see if spectre is responding to the default port.	18:13
ckotil	turn on debug mode	18:17
perlm	Spectre is responding to the default port just fine. I'm not sure if the problem is in my domain.conf or the spectre.conf. not sure what there is to even change in spectre.cof.	18:17
perlm	hah, "What port should we connect to WebGUI on?" I'm only running on 443, not 80.	18:18
ckotil	so you're only running under ssl?	18:19
perlm	yes	18:19
ckotil	maybe it needs a non ssl instance	18:19
ckotil	i dont really know	18:19
perlm	spectre only takes an ip address to talk to WebGUI. the default host for that IP is not WebGUI.	18:21
perlm	I might be SOL on this one.	18:21
perlm	has anyone gotten WebGUI to run in the default Apache host in a subdir to webroot? Or does it have to run in its own Virtual Host?	18:23
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ckotil	i have gotten it to run at http://newt.grnoc.iu.edu/WebGUI	19:28
ckotil	heres a goofy bug. I add a new ^FlieUrl(); macro and in firefox if i click on the word FileUrl in the wysiwyg editor , firefox2 crashes	19:29
ckotil	firefox2 likes to show raw file information rather than loading an image or offering a file to download.	19:30
ckotil	so i had to go back and add ^FileUrl to a lot of my urls	19:30
ckotil	daaamn. my webgui::Cache::FileCache is up to 12 megs	19:31
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jZed__	ok, here's a pickle ... I put on debug and now when I go into anything on the admin panel (including settings to turn debug off) all I get is the debug output ... no pages; on non-adming stuff it shows both	21:17
jZed__	for example the page starts with { "op" : "editSettings" }	21:19
@preaction	jZed__, you can edit the configuration file manually, but remember to restart apache after you're done	21:28
@preaction	i'd also file a bug, if you can find the code that's doing it	21:28
jZed__	hmm, so c /data/WebGUI/etc/domain-name.conf put "debug" : 0, ?	21:31
jZed__	nope, that didn't work	21:32
@preaction	did you restart apache?	21:32
jZed__	yep	21:33
@preaction	holy crap the Flash Player 9 Beta for Linux actually WORKS	21:34
jZed__	cool, I'm blocked from lots of stuff because I don't have 9	21:35
ckotil	preaction: yeah	21:35
jZed__	is there an easy way to just wipe out a site and start a new one? delete the mysql db and start over?	21:36
jZed__	or will I need to replace some directories too?	21:36
jZed__	I'm sorry I've got so many questions, but I need to decide in the next day or two whether to use webgui for a really big project (bigger than any I've seen using webgui), and I'd like to at least have it minimally working before I decide :-)	21:39
@preaction	jZed__, what kind of project?	21:47
@preaction	and don't sell it short, WebGUI is running some massive stuff already	21:48
jZed__	um, it's under NDA, but generally think of MySpace + YouTube + Other stuff	21:48
ckotil	I just completed a big project, redesigning all of our NOC websites. Now im working to implement customer portal functionality. interfacing with out database of contacts	21:48
@preaction	Brunswick New Technologies, the US Department of State	21:48
@preaction	oh, i see...	21:48
@preaction	umm....	21:48
jZed__	I'm not selling it short, I'm aiming big :-)	21:48
@preaction	we'll set aside my complete dislike for the entire idea of MySpace and say this:	21:49
ckotil	would webgui be able to power a site with millions of hits a day?	21:49
@preaction	when you get it to work with webgui, integrated with webgui's stuff, it will be awesome	21:49
@preaction	Myspace with versioning? hells yes	21:49
ckotil	heh	21:49
@preaction	like most CMS, it's limited only by the computer	21:50
ckotil	im wondering if the server running webgui would be able to keep up with the requests	21:50
jZed__	preaction, I know, I believe that, but I gotta get it working to convince the CEO	21:50
@preaction	which reminds me, there's a lot of efficiency stuff i want to do, but it'll break API so it'll have to be in 9.x	21:51
@preaction	anyway	21:51
jZed__	so, I now have a totally borked install ... version tags I can't commit because they were locked when spectre quit, the debug stuff that prevents me from doing any admin tasks ... how do I start over?	21:52
@preaction	if you just re-create the config file and database, you should be fine	21:52
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perlm	jZed, you ever get things working?	22:11
jZed__	yes, I got it installed, my virtual hosts are not quite right but I think I can fix that, I just reinstalled a site that had problems and now I am trying without success to create a first page, I commit the version tag but the page is still in pending and I don't know how to get it out	22:13
jZed__	hrmph, spectre.pl --daemon gives Can't use string ("sitename") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at ../lib/WebGUI/Config.pm line 226.	22:16
@preaction	jZed__, look in the wG config file, is everything kosher? looks like either $self or $self->{_config} got set to a string for some reason	22:30
@preaction	are you running 7.2?	22:31
jZed__	7.1.3	22:31
perlm	My problems are with Spectre not being able to talk with WebGUI either.	22:31
jZed__	this is my conf: "sitename" : [ "dev.localhost.localdomain", "localhost.localdomain"],	22:32
perlm	I wonder why ^AssetProxy started erroring on every page.	22:36
perlm	WOOOHOOOOOO, spectre just did a commit without throwing an error and requiring me to manually commit!	22:38
perlm	But what does this mean? Processing failed on macro: ^AssetProxy(style3_coolmenu);: Can't call method "canView" on an undefined value at /usr/share/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Post.pm line 117	22:39
@preaction	perlm, look at line 117 of that file, what is it trying to call a method on?	22:41
perlm	$self->getThread->getParent->canView	22:41
@preaction	a lot of these error messages that people are getting should have been TESTED FOR (even if at runtime) and reported with more information	22:41
@preaction	perlm, it means that the post has no parent Thread	22:41
@preaction	which is probably bad	22:41
perlm	but this just started showing up. And the little icon that appears just at the upper right of the admin bar is no longer there.	22:42
@preaction	no, wait, it's trying to get the Parent of the Thread, which should be the Collaboration System	22:45
@preaction	meaning there's a CS that doesn't exist, have you deleted one recently? have you deleted anything recently?	22:45
perlm	yes	22:45
perlm	lots and lots	22:45
perlm	I've been adding assets and blowing them away left and right.....mostly with the spectre auto-commit broken and me commiting things manually.	22:46
perlm	I'm trying to do a rollback to the clean install, but clicking rollback does nothing.	22:46
jZed__	I did that by deleting and reinstalling the mysql database	22:47
jZed__	and then restarting apache	22:47
perlm	yeah, I shoudl do that.....can't remember how to recreate the database.	22:47
@preaction	rollback doesn't seem to work as described, it's more a "delete this version tag and this version tag only"	22:48
@preaction	instead of "delete all version tags that occured after this version tag", as I would expect	22:48
perlm	it won't even rollback just the latest version.	22:48
perlm	worse, nothing is written to the log saying what went wrong.	22:49
@preaction	crapbeans	22:49
@preaction	nothing in modperl error log either?	22:49
perlm	j/s I'll check	22:49
perlm	nope	22:50
perlm	unless mod_perl logs are written somewhere besides the normal apache logs	22:50
@preaction	no, they shouldn't	22:50
perlm	I see the message coming in for spectre, but no action.	22:51
jZed__	well I am stuck with spectre.pl --daemon returning Can't use string ("sitename") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at ../lib/WebGUI/Config.pm line 224.	22:53
jZed__	I tried putting in a hard-coded $self->{_config} and that just led to other errors :-(	22:53
perlm	by connecting on 80 instead of 443 I got it to rollback. I've rolled back to the initial install and am still getting that error.	22:54
jZed__	duh, the light dawns, lol, perm = perlmonkey2 :-)	22:54
jZed__	s/perm/perlm/	22:55
perlm	heh, yep	22:55
jZed__	it was port 443 that gave you away :-)	22:55
jZed__	dang, I had spectre.pl working at least some of the time the other day, I wonder why it won't start?	22:56
perlm	I'd recopy the config file and start over because it sounds like some text got munged somewhere.	22:57
jZed__	the odd thing is it finds the config for the ip and port and only later bombs on the sitename	23:00
perlm	okay, I'm upgrading to 7.2 just because I can't remember if I have 1.2 or 1.3 and I need to rebuild the db :P	23:01
jZed__	ok, I'm nearing the end of my rope, two full days and I still have not been able to create a single page using webgui	23:06
perlm	it is pretty slick if you can get around the rough edges......	23:20
jZed__	I hope to get there, but doubting it sometimes	23:20
perlm	course, now I can't get apache with 7.2 installed to start	23:21
perlm	I don't remember this from the 7.1.2 install "[error] Can't locate WebGUI.pm in @INC "	23:25
perlm	that is from my httpd logs.	23:25
@preaction	perlm, that one's easy: you need to fix your PATH for apache, usually setenv PERL5LIB will do it	23:26
jZed__	w00t, success	23:27
@preaction	and of course, pb's spectre just finally spat out the support requests for today... i swear to god...	23:27
@preaction	so at 3:30pm i finally get all the support requests for the weekend and today... wtf...	23:27
jZed__	was missing curly braces around the dev_local... config section	23:27
jZed__	so the JSON bombed	23:27
@preaction	yeah... i'm not liking JSON, should've used INI or Yaml for the configuration	23:27
jZed__	well, Config.pm needs a check to make sure JsontoObj() returns an object and complains about bad JSON right there rather than passing a non-object to the requesting routine	23:28
jZed__	want a patch?	23:29
jZed__	put this after line 343 in Config.pm : Can't use string ("sitename") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at ../lib/WebGUI/Config.pm line 224.	23:33
jZed__	er, I mean this: die "Can't parse JSON in '$filename'\n" unless ref $con\f;	23:33
jZed__	that's just sloppy error catching, a proper error would have told me where to look right away	23:34
jZed__	# of course I've done such sloppy things myself too ...	23:34
@preaction	jZed__, i completely agree, most of my "tests" that i'm required to write have been neglected for better error handling	23:34
@preaction	the current ErrorHandler thing is horrible (when Carp would give me more functionality, and eval {} would let me pick and choose what to catch)	23:35
jZed__	yeah I threw in some Carps to debug	23:36
@preaction	i'll leave a note to add that error	23:36
jZed__	thanks	23:36
perlm	Somewhere something is telling apache to add /data/WebGUI to @ISA and my WebGUI is in /usr/share/WebGUI	23:38
jZed__	I made a symlink from /data to /usr/share/webgui and put WebGUI in that	23:39
perlm	I had it fine for 7.1.3	23:40
perlm	I just missed something in the config files	23:40
jZed__	how do you unlock a version?	23:40
perlm	commit it?	23:42
@preaction	perlm, grep for "/data/WebGUI" in lib, maybe there's something explicit in there, which would be bad	23:42
jZed__	I'm Admin, I made a collab sys, committed it, it did not show up anywhere except in pending versions, i go there and view it and it is locked	23:42
@preaction	that would be bug-worthy	23:42
@preaction	jZed__, spectre isn't running probably :(	23:42
jZed__	that's what I thought but ps -elf shows it	23:43
@preaction	kill it, run spectre with the --run --debug flags, and see if there's an error or something	23:43
@preaction	maybe pipe it through tee so you can get a log of it as well	23:44
perlm	precation, that was a good idea. preload.pl had /data/WebGUI hardcoded.	23:45
@preaction	that's a bug in my opinion, please submit it, but be warned that JT might not consider it a bug	23:46
@preaction	or, search the dev forums	23:46
@preaction	maybe it has a reason why that's like that	23:46
perlm	hardcoding paths are not really a great idea for enterprise software.	23:46
jZed__	Respons H_Y... retrieved successfully ... Got an error response for for H_Y...	23:47
jZed__	hmm, starting it up again after that and the page is unlocked	23:47
perlm	now I'm getting weird Log::Log4perl::Appender::log errors :(	23:50
@preaction	spectre just annoys the hell out of me sometimes...	23:50
perlm	on some pages I'm logged out, but others I'm logged in.	23:51
@preaction	browser cache	23:54
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perlm	Hah, just saw WebGUI uses yahoo's AJAX library. Nice. After much looking and playing with, I decided Yahoo's was the most appropriate also.	03:24
Radix-wrk	they did a review of a number of the libraries out there - I saw the discussion on it in the dev channel	03:44
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Radix-wrk	http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/dev/discuss/javascript-apis	03:47
perlm	reading the review now	04:29
perlm	Yeah, JT's arguements for YUI sound a lot like my own, although besides YUI I had only done anthing enterprise level with Scriptaculous/Prototype.	04:36
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@preaction	it's 2:00am, i have to be up at 9:00am for another day of support, and I only got 4 hours of sleep last night...	10:19
@preaction	how do I survive?	10:19
@preaction	and why am i still hanging out in the ubuntu channel?	10:22
Radix-wrk	Good questions	10:27
@preaction	and let it henceforth be known that I am sick and tired of the HttpProxy Wobject...	10:34
Radix-wrk	hehe	10:42
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perlm	any word on how Zjed's new install is working out for him?	19:22
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@preaction	perlm, none since yesterday	20:04
perlm	I talked to him. He loves it.	20:26
perlm	"cat's pajamas" is what he said.	20:27
perlm	Does WebGUI have Template::Toolkit2 support?	20:28
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ckotil	Can I run a cgi upload file script under webgui?	20:28
perlm	I think there are a couple of built in Assets for doing that.	20:29
ckotil	We have these weekly reports that are uploaded to the server then a cronjob script generates an html file of all the weekly reports. And i just http proxy that generated html page.	20:29
perlm	But writing your own custom upload asset shouldn't be hard.	20:29
ckotil	hrm	20:29
ckotil	intneresting	20:29
ckotil	i did start looking at creating my own assets	20:30
ckotil	ive created a couple pretty bare bone assets that didnt do squat but display some random text	20:30
ckotil	i was hoping i could use a snippet asset and paste the cgi script into that and have it execute no problem.	20:31
perlm	but you want your cronjob to LWP post the report to a WebGUI asset?	20:31
ckotil	nah it will just cronjob an external html page	20:31
ckotil	and webgui will http proxy it in	20:31
perlm	how is that working for you?	20:32
ckotil	http://www.abilene.iu.edu/abilene/support/weekly-reporting.html	20:33
ckotil	great	20:33
perlm	I'm pretty new to WebGUI myself and am only running it at a test server at my house, but I have the design guys playing with it and will probably be moving all our stuff to WebGUI.	20:37
ckotil	Ive been using it for 4 months now	20:40
ckotil	i love it	20:40
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perlm	I'm trying to figure out how you were going to use a CGI script inside of a snippet asset? Can snippets be executed? The help says only JS and markup are allowed.	20:49
ckotil	yeah :/ i dunno either	20:49
ckotil	looks like i gotta create a custom asset	20:49
ckotil	fuck	20:49
perlm	if your weekly reports are in a DB, couldn't you use the WebGUI form builder asset?	20:50
ckotil	yeah.	20:52
ckotil	pretty easily too	20:52
perlm	SQL Report asset looks like jsut what you need.	20:54
perlm	and just a few underneath is the Survey asset.......thank the gods, I'll never have to write another stupid survey webapp!	20:54
ckotil	heh	20:55
ckotil	hrm.. so you're saying store the files in the db?	20:55
ckotil	interesting.	20:55
perlm	BLOBs are meant to be used :P	20:55
@preaction	perlm, i believe there are plugins for TT, dunno about TT2	20:56
perlm	preaction, what is the default templating tool?	20:56
@preaction	HTML::Template	20:56
ckotil	good call perlm	20:57
@preaction	ckotil, you could also use the HttpProxy module, set up an apache or tinyhttpd instance to run your cgi scripts, and get the CGI output in that manner	20:58
ckotil	im doing that now.	20:58
ckotil	how can i secure access to the upload.cgi script	20:58
@preaction	perhaps there should be an "Exec" asset that could execute a command, translating URL params into command-line params	20:58
perlm	I'm starting to daydream all sorts of cool things with WebGUI. I wonder how long it would take me to port my survey's directly into the WebGUI DB. Just write to the DB and skip the WebGUI front end.	20:58
ckotil	exec would be cool	20:59
perlm	yeah, and maybe it could eval{} user entered data :P	20:59
@preaction	ckotil, secure? you could make sure that the referer was correct	20:59
@preaction	Exec would be able to execute "perl script.pl --options", no need for eval {}	21:00
@preaction	eval would be far harder to secure	21:00
ckotil	ok. that thoguht did cross my mind, but i dismissed it bc i dunno how to check the referer. how would i check to see that the referer is in fact the webgui page?	21:00
@preaction	a CGI script is passed the HTTP headers in the environment, one should be HTTP_REFERER	21:00
@preaction	you could ensure that the httpd you're running only accepts connections from localhost	21:01
@preaction	in fact, i would definately make sure of that	21:01
ckotil	ok.	21:01
ckotil	btw. im not running the wre so im jsut gonna use the same apache instance	21:01
@preaction	you'll want to make a vhost then	21:01
ckotil	ok	21:01
ckotil	ive got a bunch setup.	21:01
@preaction	and if the name isn't resolvable outside your server, you have no problem	21:01
ckotil	ah. good idea	21:02
@preaction	i mean, it'd be weird to see http://localhost and have it work, but work it would	21:02
ckotil	its an internal tool. so no big deal	21:03
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ckotil	in my custom wobject i created a form in the template. how do i process this form in the wobject?	22:03
ckotil	eh. i think i see it	22:04
perlm	I regularly fake the Referer in HTML headers. Using that as any part of the security isn't a good idea.	22:18
perlm	isn't the form submitted with each field name a hash key of the wobject?	22:22
ckotil	yeah sysadmins told me not to check referer. big risk there	22:29
ckotil	so im trying to create a custom wobject.	22:29
ckotil	and i have the form created in the template for my custom wobject.	22:29
ckotil	but i dunno where to even begin processing the form.	22:29
ckotil	its gotta be somewhere in sub view	22:29
perlm	Asset.pm, 2137 lines of code. Yeah, not gonna be easy to figure this out.	23:05
perlm	Looks like processPropertiesFromFormPost is the Asset.pm sub that processes form Posts.	23:10
perlm	looks like the default functionality of processPropertiesFromFormPost is to simply put each parameter that was Posted into the database.	23:14
perlm	This code is good stuff.	23:15
perlm	but you dont' have to call SUPER in your own asset. Looks like you can do whatever you want.	23:16
perlm	I dig it......	23:16
ckotil	in the wobject tutorial it seems that they use template variables to process the form.	23:28
ckotil	i dunno. im heading home. cya tomorrow	23:28
perlm	hasta	23:32
perlm	oh...you meant process the template, not process the post. yeah, that was all magically calls to other mod's that I haven't looked at yet.	23:33
perlm	s/magically/magical/	23:33
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perlm	I wonder if httpproxy can be made to understand IRC?	01:18
@preaction	IRC is an interactive, stateful protocol	01:25
@preaction	http is not	01:25
@preaction	don't ask me how CGI::IRC works, i don't understand a lick of it	01:25
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perlm	when you said you worked at walmart, did you mean a store, or Bentonville?	01:34
@preaction	a store	01:55
@preaction	as an unloader	01:55
@preaction	on the GM side, so not stacked nicely on pallets, packed full into the truck	01:55
@preaction	probably the hardest job in the store	01:55
@preaction	no... definately the hardest job in the store... maintenance got more respect than unloading	01:56
perlm	I used to work a trucking dock and have some sympathy for poorly packed trailers.	02:10
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@preaction	exactly... the mofos i swear would put the long-thin boxes on top, and then a box of ammunition or something on top of that, so when you pull down the long-thin one...	02:14
@preaction	if you weren't quick, you were lucky to wake up in a couple hours	02:14
@preaction	by the end of the night i'll have a working calendar, with simple events and simple views. i've got three days to add: Search, iCalendar feeds (both in and out), Event Recurrence, and Subscriptions	02:35
@preaction	who'll bet against me? 5:4 odds	02:35
perlm	holy crap	02:38
perlm	I'm sure it will be finished in time. But I'm thinking the real odds will be in the bug count.	02:38
Radix-wrk	I bet it'll be buggy ;)	02:38
perlm	hahahahaha	02:38
Radix-wrk	lol	02:38
perlm	great minds.....	02:38
@preaction	bah, screw you guys	02:39
perlm	:D	02:39
Radix-wrk	lol	02:39
@preaction	of course it's going to be buggy :p they give me a week to do this and they expect quality?	02:39
perlm	If you need a tester or anyone to do some grunt work, give me a yell	02:39
@preaction	if i had a web-facing test site i'd definately yell, but ... it would take me 10 minutes to set one up :p	02:39
perlm	Yeah, that WebGUI, once you know what you are doing it takes minutes, I tell you whole minutes, to set up.	02:40
@preaction	perlbot host IP commctrl.com	02:43
perlbot	Sorry, type ip isn't allowed. It might take up too much space here, or may be unsupported. Allowed types are: a aaaa ptr mx ns cname	02:43
@preaction	perlbot host commctrl.com	02:43
@preaction	perlbot host acommctrl.com	02:43
@preaction	perlbot host a commctrl.com	02:43
perlbot	commctrl.com has address 72.1.4.143	02:43
@preaction	perlbot hate	02:43
perlbot	sometimes I hate people. but then i realise it's because I hate a person, and I don't want to hate that person, so I spread it out over all humanity	02:43
@preaction	perlbot emo?	02:43
perlm	perlbot help	02:45
perlbot	(fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)	02:45
perlm	fun	02:45
perlm	perlbot WWW::Mechanzie::docs	02:45
perlm	perlbot WWW::Mechanize::docs	02:45
perlm	perlbot WWW::Mechanize::perldoc	02:45
@preaction	perlbot cpan WWW::Mechanize	02:46
perlbot	Documentation for 'WWW::Mechanize' can be found here: http://xrl.us/s9mr	02:46
perlm	how cool is that	02:46
@preaction	perlbot perldoc WWW::Mechanize	02:46
perlbot	Documentation for 'WWW::Mechanize' can be found here: http://xrl.us/s9mr	02:46
@preaction	perlbot -f split	02:47
@preaction	perlbot perldoc -f split	02:47
perlbot	Documentation for 'split' can be found here: http://snipurl.com/7ket	02:47
perlbot	Documentation for '-f split' can be found here: http://snipurl.com/127ln	02:47
@preaction	it's been a while since i've been able to play with perlbot	02:47
@preaction	i do like how he rotates his URL shorten sites	02:47
perlm	she's like a little sidekick quickly fetching things you often need.	02:48
@preaction	i also like how the URLs point to perldoc.com, which is dead	02:48
@preaction	perlbot perlfunc	02:49
perlbot	Perl builtin functions - http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.8.0/pod/perlfunc.html	02:49
@preaction	damnit	02:49
perlm	oh man....the wre has an automagic version updater.....	03:07
perlm	sweet	03:07
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preaction-m	perlbot <3	04:07
perlbot	bullshit, I'm way more than 3	04:07
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perlm	perlbot > 100	05:42
perlm	perlbot >100	05:42
preaction-m	<3 looks like a heart	05:44
preaction-m	given a day of the week, and a specified first day of the week, how would you find what position the day of the week falls on	05:46
preaction-m	say the Fdow is 0 (sunday), and the dow is 1 (monday), the position would be 1	05:46
preaction-m	say the Fdow is 3 (Wednesday), and the dow is 1 (monday), the position would be 6	05:47
preaction-m	er.. i lied, the first position would be 2, not 1	05:47
preaction-m	1 if it's 0-based	05:47
preaction-m	the second would be 5 if zero based	05:47
preaction-m	if the dow is less than the Fdow, add 7 to the dow. then subtract the Fdow from the dow to get position...	05:48
preaction-m	there must be something better...	05:49
Radix-wrk	why use zero based.. it's totally non-intuitive to the end user of they ever have to deal with it	05:53
preaction-m	the end user will never have to deal with it	05:54
Radix-wrk	k	05:54
preaction-m	and it doesn't work without 0-based, i've tried using 7 for sunday... it doesn't work	05:54
preaction-m	it's just this algorithm that needs it	05:54
Radix-wrk	well traditional unix way was 0 and 7 for sunday..	05:54
Radix-wrk	it didn't matter what your 'first day of the week was'	05:55
preaction-m	i use % to have 7 turn out to be 0	05:55
preaction-m	right, it's just wG already has a "First Day of the Week" user Profile Field, so i have to provide this functionality	05:55
preaction-m	it's annoying the piss out of me right now	05:55
preaction-m	hell, i'm developing under the assumption that Fdow is 0, and i can't get it right...	05:58
perlm	dang....I did this in college......there is a very elegant trick to finding days of the month.	06:01
preaction-m	shit, it's not the dow position i've screwed up, it's the week number	06:01
perlm	I haven't been able to find this in the docs, but what is the difference between an Asset and a WObject. I know a WObject subclasses an Asset, but how do they differ in function?	06:09
preaction-m	Wobjects have more built-in stuff	06:10
preaction-m	look at the definitions	06:10
preaction-m	each level pushes a new set of properties onto the definition	06:10
preaction-m	basically, subclass an Asset if you want to do more work	06:11
preaction-m	or if you want it to be leaner	06:11
perlm	I kinda got the impression that Asset's are generalized objects that should always be subclassed by a WObject.	06:11
preaction-m	the new Event is an Asset subclass, but the Calendar itself is a Wobject	06:11
preaction-m	Assets are (imho) generic pieces that can be moved around. a Wobject is an actual application that can use Assets if necessary	06:12
perlm	cool, that was what I kind of guessed.	06:12
preaction-m	you could just use Wobjects all the time, i'm sure (but then again, this is something that only the vets know, and i'm not one of them)	06:13
perlm	I was thinking I'd only write my own Asset if I had some functionality that I wanted several WObjects to inherit.	06:13
perlm	For instance, I'm eventually going to need something that can display trees of data. That might make for an Asset.	06:14
preaction-m	i'd think more of a wobject. trees of data or trees of assets?	06:15
preaction-m	why not an SQLReport?	06:16
perlm	Maybe I can lift some code from SQLReport, but the data being shown, won't come from a database, but a webservice.	06:16
Radix-wrk	can't use the webservice object?	06:17
perlm	will the webservice object show the data in tree format? or......I bet I can write a custom template for it.	06:17
Radix-wrk	a template for it would be the way to go	06:18
perlm	wow.......it will be crazy if I end up not even having to write one Asset.	06:19
perlm	I'll have to sign over my first born to JT or something.	06:19
Radix-wrk	wasn't that already in the license agreement?	06:19
Radix-wrk	2.9.14 All firstborn shall hereforth be named JT and should be owned subsidiaries of Plainblack LLC Inc.	06:20
perlm	hahaha	06:21
Radix-wrk	The whole idea of WebGUI is that you shouldn't need to deal with any code though :) It's still getting there in practice for some things, but we've been pretty pleased with it out of the box and not needed to write anything but fancy templates :)	06:21
Radix-wrk	Feel free to fix any bugs you find or extend what's there for the rest of us tho! :)	06:22
perlm	Hopefully I'll be able to contribute back to the community. This is like being given a commercial enterprise portal for free (and lives up to the PR).	06:23
Radix-wrk	I'd love to try writing a wObject myself some time.. but to be honest I have no idea what to code or where to start. (perl newbie too)	06:25
Radix-wrk	Actually.. I do know where to start	06:27
perlm	It looks complicated at first until you realize that most of the code is an automated channel for moving data to and from the database. I think I'll try writing my own WObject that uses a custom template just to get my feet wet.	06:27
perlm	where?	06:27
Radix-wrk	with the wobject skeleton :)	06:28
perlm	heh	06:28
Radix-wrk	I have the pdf from the Webgui User Conference on writing wobjects too :)	06:28
perlm	There is a pdf about building WObjects online, but my doc viewer doesn't show the code very well.	06:29
Radix-wrk	Wobjects are also Assets, Assets are more flexible, Wobjects provide more utility methods	06:29
Radix-wrk	Assets don't usually have a style wrapper, or they do something custom for their style wrapper	06:29
Radix-wrk	that's out of the pdf I have here.. Assets vs Wobjects	06:30
perlm	I don't think that one is online	06:31
Radix-wrk	probably not - the WUC was only a couple of months ago	06:32
preaction-m	actually the skeleton needs to be updated... :(	06:34
preaction-m	at least, it's never worked for me out of the box, after substituting my Wobject name in the appropriate places	06:34
perlm	is there another WObject I can copy that is a pretty good example?	06:34
preaction-m	always weird things going on	06:34
preaction-m	they're all in varying states of update, but you are best with the skeleton	06:35
preaction-m	if you can, keep track of the error messages you get, they probably need to be better	06:35
preaction-m	the utility classes should give a full caller trace	06:36
preaction-m	but they don't :(	06:36
perlm	Where are the templates stored?	06:36
preaction-m	templates are assets	06:36
Radix-wrk	anywhere	06:36
preaction-m	there are pros and cons to that, of course, but for wG purposes, it works wonderfully	06:37
Radix-wrk	you can't usually add them through new content sidebar, but from the asset manager you can	06:38
preaction-m	oh, and my first dow code works great now. i rule	06:38
perlm	Nice...congrats	06:38
Radix-wrk	cool	06:38
perlm	I see....Content Sidebar->Assets then way at the bottom is a template choice.	06:39
preaction-m	make sure to fill in the template namespace you put in your new wobject's definition	06:43
perlm	I'm not sure I'm going to be able to tie the XML response from a webservice into a template's variables.	06:44
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preaction-m	why not?	06:46
perlm	Does the webservice Wobject allow me to do that?	06:47
preaction-m	never tried it	06:49
preaction-m	use the source, luke	06:49
perlm	Wow, I can embed macros in the "Web Services Client Template" to handle the responses.	06:49
perlm	cool beyond words.	06:50
perlm	WebGUI is making me obsolete.	06:50
perlm	Okay, I'm outy. g'night	06:55
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-!- preaction-m changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable: 7.1.3; beta: 7.2.0) \|\| Need help? Ask and wait patiently (it might take awhile)		06:55
Radix-wrk	nite	06:55
preaction-m	tomorrow is 7.2.1, no?	06:55
Radix-wrk	yeah	06:55
Radix-wrk	Wed night for you guys.. thursday morning for me :)	06:56
preaction-m	now's where I wish I had taken discrete math in college	08:52
preaction-m	Given an event with a start and an end, and a time period to search for, how can you tell if the event occurs during the time period? :p	08:53
preaction-m	hit detection... if any of the start/end times are contained by the opposing start/end times, it's occuring	08:54
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Jiggie	yooo	17:37
ckotil	mmmm mod_rewrite how i love thee	17:58
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bipolar	I'm here to humbly ask for assistance with my webgui install. My server is running Debian Sarge (stable) w/ Apache2. When I try to start Spectre I get the following error:	20:02
bipolar	# Can't locate object method "get" via package "POE::Filter::HTTPHead_Line" at /usr/share/perl5/POE/Filter/Stackable.pm line 39.	20:02
bipolar	(in cleanup) Can't call method "free" on an undefined value at /usr/share/perl5/POE/Component/Connection/Keepalive.pm line 44 during global destruction.	20:02
bipolar	I've googled and searched the webgui forums for all parts of that error with no luck.	20:02
bipolar	I'm using the libpoe packages from http://deb.cyberdiscordia.org\	20:03
bipolar	The Webgui install is from source.	20:04
bipolar	version 7.1.2	20:04
@preaction	bipolar, use cpan to try to update that module	20:09
bipolar	preaction: ok. I'll try that. give me some time, I'm not overly familure with CPAN. :)	20:10
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bipolar	preaction: that did it! thanks!	20:32
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maxscience	hey	21:00
maxscience	did you played a bit with Plone?	21:00
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ckotil	we considered plone.	21:20
ckotil	How do I export my site to /WebGUI/www/export ?	21:33
ckotil	as static .html	21:33
maxscience	and why you chose WebGUI over Plone?	21:34
jZed	I chose it because it's Perl not Python :-)	21:36
maxscience	and? :)	21:36
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maxscience	why you prefer Perl over Python? :)	21:37
jZed	and I'm a perl hacker, not a python hacker	21:37
maxscience	oh ok	21:37
jZed	14 years of coding perl may have something to do with it :-)	21:37
ckotil	WebGUI offered better access control	21:39
ckotil	and pluggable authentication.	21:39
ckotil	we use a university wide system called CAS	21:39
maxscience	but python is much more easier, efficient, faster to code, etc. etc.	21:39
ckotil	terrible error output tho	21:39
maxscience	I also chose WebGUI... But now I checked again Plone since sometime and boy it is cool	21:39
jZed	not faster for me to code, not easier for me, more efficient? dunno about that	21:40
bipolar	is there any way to re-initalize the admin user and give that user access to everything? I seem to have a borked site that denies access to some things.	21:40
jZed	what does plone have that webgui doesn't?	21:40
maxscience	far better UI to start	21:40
maxscience	much easier installation and admin	21:41
jZed	bipolar ... maybe set the UI prefs to 9guru?	21:41
jZed	I hear you on all those points maxscience	21:41
+crythias	plone/zope rocks.	21:41
maxscience	I am 9 guru :) I'm talking about UI usability, responsiveness, compatibility, and COOLNESS	21:42
+crythias	but I liked WebGUI's end user stuff and draggable content.	21:42
maxscience	whatever... Draggable content doesn't work on my favourite browser :D	21:42
+crythias	maxscience: jZed was talking to bipolar :)	21:42
maxscience	oh yeah sry :P	21:42
jZed	what I need is ability to define multiple users with multiple sites and rich auth and perms	21:42
+crythias	yeah, see that's where plone is good.. it has user heirarchy.	21:43
maxscience	what do you mean by "define multiple users with multiple sites"?	21:43
maxscience	you're an ISP offering WebGUI hostin?	21:43
bipolar	jZed: I don't understand.... in Settings-> UI?	21:43
jZed	no, it's a community with hosting provided to members but like an ISP host in some ways	21:44
jZed	um, yeah, I think so bipolar	21:45
maxscience	nice.. You have some heavy custom coding to auto-generate sites, etc.?	21:45
jZed	I'm just getting started, but that's the general idea	21:45
maxscience	So you don't have a working site yet	21:45
jZed	nope, only installed my first webgui yesterday	21:46
jZed	but I have a team and I think we've decided on webgui, so the fun begins	21:46
bipolar	jZed: I don't see anything like that in settings->ui :\	21:46
+crythias	no, it's user settings.	21:47
ckotil	How do I export my site to /WebGUI/www/export ?	21:47
maxscience	I hope you'll be sharing your stuff with the community... Another thing WebGUI is lacking badly is the Community... WebGUI contributions are ver very rare, Zope contributions are dozens a day	21:47
+crythias	ckotil: if it's turned on in conf, admin on should show export.	21:47
maxscience	almost :P	21:47
ckotil	ah. k thx. i know i enabled it in the conf	21:47
maxscience	I mean Plone	21:48
jZed	I hear you about the community	21:48
maxscience	and what is really annoying is that plainblack staff doesn't really like to have feedback	21:49
+crythias	yeah. that guy crythias.. who knows when he's going to post, and he never ever posts anything that works. oh. hey....	21:49
jZed	hmm, preaction has been really helpful to me and has fed back some minor suggestions I made	21:50
maxscience	ahah nah crythias I didn't forget ya. But you're a rare guy in the WebGUI community, that's what I meann	21:50
ckotil	i wish the forums were better archived at plainblack.com	21:50
ckotil	however the plainblack support forum is very helpful	21:50
ckotil	sure....$500 / year helpful	21:50
+crythias	it's ok. I'm rather terse and impatient, so I do understand as well.	21:50
jZed	how would you compare the scalability of plone and webgui ... for really heavy traffic	21:52
preaction-m	maxscience: where did you get that conclusion, pb doesn't like feedback? that's what the dev forum is for	21:53
preaction-m	though, because nobody else from pb staff is here, i can say i was told NOT to seek community feedback on the calendar rewrite, since it's being mostly funded by a client	21:53
preaction-m	with that being said, i've got my web-facing dev site operational, and when i feel comfortable (probably by tomorrow morning), i plan to take a few people up on their offer of help testing	21:54
jZed	preaction++	21:55
preaction-m	i was surprised as well, the pb site says there's a #webgui on freenode and efnet, and i got here and there was basically nobody	21:55
preaction-m	radix and cryth, roy and one or two others from the last WUC	21:56
preaction-m	i inquired about the efnet one, it's gone.	21:56
preaction-m	what should've happened is JT should've agreed to my request to branch for this calendar, so people can check out what i'm doing. but c'est la vie.	21:57
preaction-m	trifle not in the affairs of hackers, for they are subtle and quick to temper	21:58
preaction-m	perlbot karma preaction	21:58
perlbot	preaction doesn't have any karma	21:58
preaction-m	damnit...	21:58
* preaction-m & work		21:58
bipolar	crythias: When I click on a user in 'Admin Console -> Users' I get a long delay, then I get returned to the homepage and the log says:	22:01
bipolar	2006/11/15 14:49:23 - FATAL - securityservicecompany.com.conf - Log::Log4perl::Appender::log[182] - Couldn't execute prepared statement: SELECT u.userId AS userId, a1.fieldData AS ldapConnection FROM users AS u INNER JOIN authentication AS a1 ON u.userId = a1.userId WHERE a1.fieldName = 'ldapConnection' AND u.authMethod = 'LDAP' ORDER BY ldapConnection, userId LIMIT ?,18446744073709551615 : With place holders: 0. Root cause: You have an error in	22:01
bipolar	your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ''0',18446744073709551615' at line 1	22:01
bipolar	2006/11/15 14:49:24 - ERROR - securityservicecompany.com.conf - Log::Log4perl::Layout::PatternLayout::render[[undef]] - Couldn't execute operation : WebGUI::Operation::Workflow::www_runWorkflow. Root cause: ModPerl::Util::exit: (120000) exit was called at /usr/local/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Session/ErrorHandler.pm line 217	22:01
perlm	Plone comes in Fedora extras and is as easy to install as typing "yum install plone" as root.	22:02
bipolar	Any content I edit ends up locked and I'm unable to commit it.	22:02
perlm	The problem is Python doesn't have anything close to a CPAN and Python also has some things that are weird (so says Guido), plus and most horrendous, regex's aren't part of the language.	22:03
perlm	so yes it looks pretty, but prettiness isn't a reason to choose a language.	22:04
jZed	bipolar check spectre, when it goes out there's no warning and nothing gets commited	22:04
bipolar	jZed: yeah, it's running	22:04
preaction-m	perlm, if I were so inclined, i'd maintain an ubuntu package for wG, but for now i've got other things	22:04
preaction-m	perlm: there is a gentoo package for webgui iirc	22:05
bipolar	jZed: it seems to be a permissions error. I wish I could just reset the webgui user database and all the assets	22:05
jZed	bipolar if you really want to wipe everything you can	22:06
perlm	Guido plans a complete overhaul of Python 2000 (or 2, whatever) to fix a lot of things. My money is on Perl 6 as Guido's plans for Python 2 are just "bugfixes".	22:06
bipolar	jZed: not everything, just the users.	22:06
jZed	just go to mysql and do drop database some_domain_name	22:06
preaction-m	and perl 6 is turning out to be Duke Nukem Forever	22:06
perlm	it will be out next year.	22:06
perlm	Spring or Summer target release date	22:06
perlm	and it wil roxorz your soxorz	22:06
preaction-m	seriously? awesome	22:06
* bipolar loads up IIS and Frontpage... well, not really....		22:07
jZed	for a variable definition of "next"	22:07
perlm	Python2 will probably be ran on Parrot 99% of the time anyways :D	22:08
perlm	So lusers can take their pretty whitespaces and non-native regexs and still user Perl6.	22:08
preaction-m	Perl6 is not Parrot :p	22:09
preaction-m	Parrot is bytecode, like java bytecode	22:09
perlm	I know....but it is being developed for Perl 6	22:09
preaction-m	Parrot also has interpreters for a whole slew of other languages	22:09
perlm	I know.	22:09
perlm	that is what I was saying about Python running on parrot most of the time.	22:09
perlm	kind of crazy to think there will be a common layer where almost everyone's libraries can play nice together.	22:10
preaction-m	it could've happened with java, if sun made interpreters/compilers for other languages into java bytecode	22:11
preaction-m	and it is happening with .Net	22:11
maxscience	hey I'm back	22:11
maxscience	yeah I know the Perl 6 stuff	22:11
maxscience	but, as of now, the typical hello world web app contest is won by Python	22:12
maxscience	you code things faster	22:12
preaction-m	print "Hello, World!\n"; # huh?	22:13
preaction-m	oh, web, sorry	22:13
maxscience	eheh yep.. I'm talking about full web app	22:13
perlm	Look, you know of the Lisp IQ test? Perl is kind of like that. It is dense, hard to follow, but very powerful. If you need things at a llittle slower pace, no one is going to say "that's a bad idea". But don't knock the power users.	22:13
preaction-m	print "Content-type: text/plain\n\n","Hello, World!\n"; # what?	22:13
jZed	use CGI; print CGI::header(), "hello world"	22:13
preaction-m	ew, i hate using CGI for HTML generation :p	22:14
maxscience	lol CGI	22:14
preaction-m	you can't talk about "hello, world" and a "full web-app" in the same sentence...	22:14
jZed	I was golfing :-)	22:14
preaction-m	orly	22:14
maxscience	I can	22:15
preaction-m	they're two different concepts...	22:15
perlm	maxscience care to play golf on a Perl/Python hello world where the language also provides the webserver?	22:15
maxscience	for "full web app" I meant how much it takes for the whole process to be done	22:15
maxscience	Lines Of Code, Configuration, etc.	22:15
preaction-m	sockets and all?	22:15
maxscience	As an example, in J2EE you need XML configuration, Lines of code, server restarts, etc.	22:16
maxscience	for a simple hello world	22:16
preaction-m	but we're comparing Perl and Python	22:16
maxscience	I know.. It was an example	22:16
preaction-m	using CGI, both are pretty much the same. load the CGI module, print a header, print a string	22:16
maxscience	eheh with Zope you don't need that	22:17
maxscience	just the html code	22:17
jZed	same with Mason or PHP	22:17
maxscience	you can do hello world pretty much with 1 line	22:17
maxscience	PHP is unsecure	22:17
jZed	if you're running Mason via mod_perl a "hello world" for the web is just: hello world	22:18
maxscience	Mason needs tweaks to be as fast as python and it's an hassle to admin	22:18
perlm	maxscience did you come here to just try to kill off the competition? Opensource software thrives because of a diverse ecosystem. There is room for WebGUI and Zope you know?	22:18
preaction-m	any language is as secure as the code you write on it	22:18
maxscience	heh perlm don't take me wrong.. I chose WebGUI as my CMS.. Just wanted to get your opinions on the matter	22:19
preaction-m	PHP is BAD as a language, doesn't mean you can't write good apps in it	22:19
maxscience	But afterall, it reduces to a Perl fanboys vs Python fanboys	22:19
preaction-m	perlbot BAD	22:19
perlbot	Broken As Designed - There comes a time when it's easier to start from scratch.	22:19
maxscience	I'm no fanboy that's why I can think freely lol	22:19
preaction-m	so why are you persisting in the holy war?	22:19
maxscience	it's not meant to be an holy war... Till you're thinking it that way	22:20
maxscience	anyway you're from plainblack?	22:20
preaction-m	basically thus: when it comes to perl and python i have no opinion either way, I use Perl because I know Perl	22:21
maxscience	yeah that's the thing..	22:22
perlm	I rely to much on CPAN to switch to Python. Too many powerful libs lacking in Python.	22:22
preaction-m	and when Perl finally becomes viable for applications programming (thanks to Parrot), I will keep using	22:22
maxscience	Anyway I'm looking forward to Perl 6	22:22
perlm	There is a great Perlcast on 6.	22:23
maxscience	Plone community is just much bigger than WebGUI community... And Plone is a fairly new CMS	22:23
perlm	or maybe it was a cnet cast	22:23
maxscience	one reason is that it's much simpler to install	22:23
preaction-m	i think for the most part, wG community has been rather secular	22:24
perlm	Does Python have web templating?	22:24
preaction-m	in just a few short weeks, this channel has doubled in size	22:24
maxscience	sure it has	22:24
preaction-m	any language more than two weeks old has web templating :p	22:24
maxscience	trough Zope or TurboGears	22:24
ckotil	preaction-m: true. i bet it keeps growing	22:24
bipolar	ok. I'm going to try one last thing. I'm going to try to move my old, broken site to a new webgui instance. I have the new instance running and it seems to work. I've exported my old style to a package.	22:25
maxscience	heh preaction.. Just login to the plone channel.. 172 users now... Here 12	22:25
maxscience	And usually there are about 6	22:25
maxscience	But the issue it's not really about the IRC channel... It's about Contributions	22:26
ckotil	the difference has got to be plainblacks business model	22:26
ckotil	its a business...MAN	22:26
maxscience	yeah that's right	22:26
jZed	other languages have lots more user oriented apps than perl, but perl has more developer oriented modules, it's not just webgui, perl in general doesn't face towards users by default	22:28
maxscience	yeah that's right	22:28
preaction-m	there's also that Perl is more oriented towards individualism it seems	22:28
maxscience	and that makes it an old-fashioned language	22:28
preaction-m	hell, before i got hired, i wrote my own web framework	22:28
preaction-m	old-fashioned, it's as old as I am	22:28
preaction-m	learning curve too	22:28
preaction-m	Perl6 won't be the magic hammer that fixes the Perl community, but I've got a few ideas I'd like to see to help Perl itself	22:29
maxscience	preaction-m: you're developing calendar enhancements for WebGUI?	22:29
preaction-m	enhancements nothing, i'm rewriting the whole damned thing	22:29
maxscience	nice... With iCal/vCal and CalDAV in mind? ;)	22:30
preaction-m	iCalendar from the start	22:30
maxscience	any ETA?	22:30
preaction-m	my first draft is due monday	22:30
ckotil	My group is really going to appreciate this preaction-m	22:30
maxscience	oh so you're pretty much done?	22:30
preaction-m	nowhere near	22:30
preaction-m	i'm pulling 14+ hour days until then	22:31
maxscience	so how much till the end more or less? :)	22:31
bipolar	main::http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=undef - Couldn't execute operation : WebGUI::Operation::User::www_editUser. Root cause: Can't call method "get" on an undefined value at /usr/local/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Auth/LDAP.pm line 212.	22:32
bipolar	sigh	22:32
bipolar	how the heck did that wikipidia crap get stuck in there?	22:32
bipolar	gah	22:33
maxscience	lol no idea	22:33
preaction-m	i'm hoping i get a weekend, i had plans...	22:33
bipolar	main::[[undef]] - Couldn't execute operation : WebGUI::Operation::User::www_editUser. Root cause: Can't call method "get" on an undefined value at /usr/local/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Auth/LDAP.pm line 212.	22:33
preaction-m	bipolar: what's on that line?	22:34
bipolar	it was an option in konverstation	22:34
perlm	maxscience why did you chose WebGUI over Plone?	22:34
bipolar	my $connection = $ldapLink->get;	22:34
bipolar	preaction-m: I have no ldap users.	22:35
preaction-m	bipolar: then ldap should be disabled as an authentication method in your config file	22:35
bipolar	preaction-m: nor do I want webgui/ldap integration at this point. it shouldn't even be looking for it.	22:35
bipolar	preaction-m: crap... let me see if thats there....	22:35
maxscience	well for the time I evaluated Plone, it was not mature enough and it lacked some features... Also some issues about templating flexibility	22:35
perlm	but now you think it is better?	22:36
maxscience	WebGUI really needs to jump in the AJAX bandwagon asap	22:36
maxscience	for some aspects, it's a lot better	22:36
perlm	It is moving towards Ajax very rapidly.	22:36
perlm	already has a lot of Ajax.	22:36
preaction-m	we just included Yui to standardize the core JS library	22:37
bipolar	preaction-m: jeez... how did I miss that.... the weird thing is I had that on for both sites, but only this one gives me errors.	22:37
maxscience	not enough... JT chose the WebGUI ajax tookit about 2 weeks ago	22:37
maxscience	yeah YUI	22:37
perlm	At least he went with YUI	22:37
preaction-m	also, ajax is overused imho. it's used in place of POST when POST should be done	22:38
maxscience	he asked the "community" some feedback on that.. Everyone said "go for scriptaculous+prototype" and he went YUI lol	22:38
maxscience	well "WebGUI" it's a pretentious name... And the GUI of the web now is ajax... Web 2.0	22:38
preaction-m	when POST isn't right, use ajax. example: the calendar will have a button to immediately grab new feed data, using an ajax call	22:40
ckotil	cool	22:40
preaction-m	web2.0 is a crap buzzword, but then so is ajax for that matter	22:40
preaction-m	but ajax works better than XMLHttpRequest	22:40
maxscience	it's not crap	22:40
preaction-m	it is crap, web 2.0 is nothing new. it's just that finally the awesome innovations that certain sites have created are being mainstreamed	22:41
perlm	YUI is the best AJAX framework out there, easily. And if you start talking about documentation, it because blantantly obvious.	22:41
maxscience	it's nothing new, but it's not crap ;)	22:41
maxscience	and implementations are pretty new anyway... That matters for end users	22:42
maxscience	look at that http://www.plainblack.com/user_contributions/user_contributions/assets/jshttpproxy-1.2	22:43
ckotil	oh hell yeah.	22:44
ckotil	ive been waiting for that	22:44
maxscience	it's HttpProxy with AJAX... I proposed to merge it with the actual one	22:44
ckotil	i need to try that out, see if i can use that in places where i was forced to use iframe	22:44
ckotil	i was unable to use httpproxy bc of our CAS authentication. with jshttpproxy, the users web browser will be retrieving the data rather then webgui so the authentication should be passed along A OK.	22:45
ckotil	i hope. that sound reasonable?	22:45
bipolar	preaction-m: thanku,thanku,thanku! I can now make changes and commit them. I can also access my user settings again. Now I have only one more issue unresolved.	22:47
bipolar	I think I may have some incompatible tinyMCE plugins or something else that is messing up my edits. This site has been upgraded all the way up from 6.4 or so.	22:48
bipolar	It's not saving formating of text. specificly, alignment and styles.	22:49
maxscience	rich edit and image manipulation in Plone is just MUCH better	22:49
bipolar	OMG	22:49
bipolar	I don't give a rats about plone right now.	22:49
maxscience	I'm not talking to you :D	22:49
jZed	hmm, my daughter just IM'd me this course descriptiion from the University of Washington : LING 270 Introduction to Perl Programming for Linguists (5) Bender %~	22:51
jZed	Fundamentalprogramming techniques, including data types, control flow, regularexpressions, file handling, GUI design, and CGI interaction. Contentrelates to a variety of linguistic concepts including syntax,morphology, phonology, lexicon building and foreign language corpora.No previous programming necessary; however, a background in generallinguistic theory is assumed.	22:51
maxscience	hah universities use to teach old languages :D	22:52
jZed	The title: LING 209 Introduction to Perl Programming for Linguists	22:52
maxscience	Perl syntax is such non-user friendly that I find it hard for linguists	22:53
maxscience	although it might perform what they need just fine	22:53
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ckotil	http://weathermap.grnoc.iu.edu/nlrmaps/layer2.html 9.9 gbps !!!!	22:59
maxscience	The webgui custom modules for TinyMCE really need some overhaul.. Like the Image Editor....	23:00
ckotil	supercomputing 2006 is going on right now in tampa, FL . and all the research and education networks are having speed tests	23:00
ckotil	http://nlrsc06.grnoc.iu.edu/	23:00
maxscience	hah	23:01
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maxscience	heh have to go	23:03
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bipolar	preaction-m: any idea what might be causing the editor to drop formating?	23:30
bipolar	If I bypass the editor and just edit the html directly the changes do get saved, so it must be the editor.	23:35
bipolar	It's only affecting this one site on this webgui install. the other sites editor works fine.	23:43
bipolar	well.... I'll have to try to find the problem later. It's time to go home.	23:54
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+crythias	heh. Britney's divorced. Now her husband is Fed-ex.	01:24
Radix_	groan	01:25
jZed	ups, you did it again	01:25
+crythias	it's a taste of a poison'd paradise.	01:25
+crythias	heh. what's this? $perls	01:26
+crythias	it's a string of perls	01:26
jZed	what's this? s/i/i/g;	01:27
Radix_	i for an i	01:27
+crythias	an I for an i	01:27
jZed	... the old testament </rimshot>	01:27
+crythias	heh. http://search.cpan.org/~jwoodyatt/conjury-1.004/Core/cast	01:28
+crythias	cast spells	01:29
Radix_	just don't give up your day jobs guys :)	01:29
+crythias	:)	01:30
jZed	if I gave up my day job guys, I'd have to work	01:31
+crythias	Graphics Programming in Perl http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/07/23/review.html	01:32
+crythias	just sayin'.	01:32
+crythias	http://search.cpan.org/~tonyc/Imager