WebGUI irc logs from: 2010-07.log

--- Log opened Thu Jul 01 00:00:04 2010
+perlDreamer	thanks for that tip	00:06
+perlDreamer	btw, merging pass 2 is proceeding well	00:07
+perlDreamer	some test is leaking carts	00:07
+perlDreamer	and I forgot to change the ENV code in Group.t	00:07
+perlDreamer	but we're up to 7.9.7	00:07
+perlDreamer	and we should be fully up to speed by friday	00:08
+perlDreamer	probably earlier	00:08
+perlDreamer	I'll just start merging after every 7.9 release	00:08
+perlDreamer	and that way, you won't get slammed with all my test editing, session work, indent changes and the like, too	00:08
+perlDreamer	Haarg, what happens when you do this: git co master; wgd reset --config; git co WebGUI8; wgd reset -d	00:09
+perlDreamer	I get session complaints during the upgrade that it can't start a cache object because there aren't any cache settings	00:10
+perlDreamer	which makes sense, since they haven't been added yet	00:10
@preaction	fun!	00:10
Haarg	yay session die die die	00:12
Haarg	anyway, my upgrades branch will fix that	00:12
+perlDreamer	am i still here?	00:14
+perlDreamer	yup	00:14
Haarg	did you have any other thoughts on that upgrades reporting thing?	00:19
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+perlDreamer	no, the output is fine	00:35
* perlDreamer takes the kids to the dentist, I won't be back online until later tonight, maybe		00:56
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@preaction	Which is it? Which way do we want to deal with JSON in asset data? As text or as an arrayref?	01:10
@preaction	or just half one half the other? that sounds good	01:10
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Haarg	i'm a big fan of inconsistency.	02:03
@scrottie	yeah, sometimes I am too.	02:04
Haarg	seems like BUILDARGS should be deserializing the data	02:05
Haarg	write is serializing the data	02:06
Haarg	so that seems kind of bad	02:06
Haarg	the Serialize attribute trait currently does nothing, but is just used as a marker	02:07
Haarg	which tells it to serialize data before writing it. but i don't see where it deserializes the data.	02:08
Haarg	both behaviors should probably be pushed into the trait itself, and have BUILDARGS and write call that	02:08
@scrottie	http://www.webgui.org/webgui/tv ... 404. I wanna watch videos!	02:13
Haarg	http://www.webgui.org/wgtv	02:14
@scrottie	thanks.	02:14
Haarg	where did you get that link from?	02:14
@scrottie	http://www.webgui.org/community ... first paragraph under the "webgui community" heading	02:15
Haarg	filed a bug for you http://www.webgui.org/use/bugs/tracker/11694	02:19
@scrottie	ah, thanks.	02:22
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+perlDreamer	preaction: WebGUI::Type has a type for coercing Strings into JSON types	03:47
+perlDreamer	also, two tests away from a full 7.9.7 merge	03:51
+perlDreamer	last test fixed, again	04:24
+perlDreamer	time to run the suite	04:24
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+perlDreamer	all passing!	04:44
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r5e502fe / : Merge commit '17ce3572bfa4daf61c60d75dc49d6cc758f97b0b' into WebGUI8. All tests passing. - http://bit.ly/d4bZMG	04:44
+perlDreamer	merging 7.9.8 next	04:48
@scrottie	perlDreamer++	04:49
@scrottie	you rock.	04:49
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@scrottie	I see template escapes. This is not good.	06:07
@scrottie	try again tomorrow I guess.	06:07
+perlDreamer	scrottie, what are template escapes?	06:55
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SDuensin	Greetings.	15:57
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mducharme	dammit dammit dammit	17:55
mducharme	i'm in trouble with my boss...	17:55
mducharme	stupid spectre	17:55
@preaction	Haarg: i'm talking in 7.9. I'm trying to write a form control that produces and consumes serialized JSON, but if the field in the asset is also set the "serialized => 1" then my field (and Asset.pm) chokes on it	17:55
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@preaction	so both asset and my field need to be able to handle both situations, either you get the ref to serialize OR you get the string already serialized	17:56
Haarg	ah	17:56
@preaction	which, imho, just invites a whole shitton of problems	17:56
@preaction	mducharme: what's up?	17:56
mducharme	when I do webgui upgrades, I just use the webgui service to restart it afterwards.. it never told me that spectre didn't start properly	17:56
mducharme	this was months ago	17:56
mducharme	yesterday I noticed that spectre wasn't running.. started it, then we suddenly got like 6 months of backed-up "contact us" page emails all at once	17:57
@preaction	are you running the wremonitor.pl? it would have tried to restart i think	17:57
mducharme	no, I'm not	17:57
mducharme	obviously	17:57
mducharme	the issue was definately after an upgrade, because there was a missing comma from spectre, conf	17:58
mducharme	er spectre.conf	17:58
@preaction	add to root crontab: /3 * * * /data/wre/sbin/wremonitor.pl	17:58
@preaction	i might be missing a *, forget how many you need	17:58
mducharme	who does that email to	17:58
@preaction	M H D M DM, no i'm right	17:58
@preaction	check wre.conf, it's in there	17:58
@preaction	but really, i'd get a real monitoring solution. wremonitor.pl will hold you over until you install and set up zabbix	17:59
@preaction	mental note: I should write a blog post to help set up zabbix to monitor WebGUI services	17:59
@preaction	zabbix is amazing. just amazing. i have 20 servers, they don't go down, and i get paged maybe once a month	17:59
mducharme	boss is mad at me now, he's like "I am not impressed, how do I know anything you do is working?"	18:00
mducharme	now I know for sure after an upgrade I will use wreservice.pl to start the services instead of just using the service script	18:00
mducharme	because the wreservice.pl told me spectre failed, the service script told me nothing	18:01
Haarg	strange	18:01
mducharme	yeah, I start the service with /etc/init.d/webgui start and it looks like everything is peachy	18:01
@preaction	but seriously, there is a right answer to his question: "You know because you can log in to zabbix and see the status of everything on our server"	18:02
mducharme	if I start the service with /data/wre/sbin/wreservice.pl --start all , it shows SPECTRE failed	18:02
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mducharme	preaction that looks like it would be something too big and complex for this business...	18:04
@preaction	but right now you have nothing. your server could go down in the middle of the night and nobody would know until morning	18:04
@preaction	i'm just saying.	18:04
@preaction	the alternative: we could host you, then i'd be in charge of keeping webgui up (and we'd monitor with zabbix) ;)	18:05
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mducharme	preaction - we have webgui hosting our browser start page	18:16
mducharme	people know right away if webgui isn't running because the browser start page won't appear :)	18:16
@preaction	right, but the idea w/ zabbix is that an Admin knows before a User knows. if the User tells the Admin, that's a failure	18:16
@preaction	in my situation, it's a pissed-off client	18:16
mducharme	I know that	18:17
mducharme	however, the person who I am transfering my admin responsibilities too	18:17
mducharme	er to	18:17
mducharme	she is supposed to be managing all of the systems	18:18
mducharme	she previously worked in a computer store setting up windows boxes and never touched a server	18:18
mducharme	she doesn't even know how to install webgui yet, so I've been managing the box	18:18
mducharme	setting up zabbix would just be one other system that she doesn't yet know how to manage	18:18
mducharme	it would cause more problems than it is worth	18:18
mducharme	if she was at a higher level, I would say it is fine	18:19
mducharme	but at the level she is at, she can't handle it	18:19
mducharme	I'm trying to make everything as simple as possible for her	18:20
+perlDreamer	mducharme, in that kind of situation, easiest is having someone else host and monitor the box	18:26
+bartjol	or use a monitoring system	18:30
+bartjol	we use nagios	18:31
@preaction	yeah, i suggested zabbix	18:31
@preaction	mducharme, you'd set up zabbix and she'd just get paged when something gets wrong. much like how perlDreamer gets paged, but i'm the one who configures	18:31
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+bartjol	aah, you get Colin to clean up your mess	18:32
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* perlDreamer doesn't mind		18:49
+perlDreamer	preaction never yells	18:49
+perlDreamer	preaction++	18:50
+bartjol	ah, only JT does	18:50
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+perlDreamer	JT doesn't yell at me either	18:50
+bartjol	oh, only at me then ;)	18:51
@preaction	we pulled his fangs. all bark and no bite	18:51
+bartjol	ah, didn't know that	18:52
@preaction	they were getting long, interfering with his eating	18:53
@preaction	that's what happens when you keep JTs in captivity too long	18:53
+perlDreamer	preaction, don't know if you backlogged last night or not. We're merged up to 7.9.7	18:53
+perlDreamer	7.9.8 will be today	18:53
@preaction	yep, good job	18:53
+perlDreamer	and then I'll merge every other week to keep us up to date	18:53
@preaction	once we start making 8 releases we'll need to keep up-to-date	18:54
+perlDreamer	hopefully we won't start making 8 releases until after 7.9 is stable	18:54
+perlDreamer	so we only have to maintain two branches	18:54
@preaction	actually, we need to do it around the same time	18:54
@preaction	and we'll have a 7.10. we have to	18:55
@preaction	otherwise where would we put new features that people want to actually use?	18:55
+perlDreamer	why for?	18:55
+perlDreamer	ah	18:55
@preaction	8 won't be stable until well past Jan	18:55
@preaction	Jan it'll be beta	18:55
@preaction	we might even have a 7.11	18:55
@preaction	(oh thank heaven)	18:55
@preaction	but from where i'm sitting now, 7.10 is necessary	18:55
+perlDreamer	you're been dying to say that, haven't you?	18:55
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@preaction	no, i just came to this realization like two or three days ago as i was planning 7.9 stable	18:57
@preaction	but yes	18:58
* perlDreamer sighs, but resolves to do the three branch dance		18:58
+bartjol	oooh, I wanna have a movie of that	18:58
@preaction	if things go according to plan, we'll probably be doing a three-branch dance during all of 9	18:58
@preaction	8 had a huge time where we were completely unable to release	18:59
+perlDreamer	I'll be practiced by then	18:59
@preaction	huge changes that broke everything	18:59
@preaction	i want 9 to be much more subtle	18:59
@preaction	finesse	18:59
+bartjol	I get it, I don't get to touch it	19:00
+perlDreamer	bartjol, you're welcome to come hack if you wish	19:00
@preaction	there's plenty of tasks for 8 and we're willing to mentor	19:00
@preaction	little things like running perltidy and making sure it doesn't break tests, running Perl::Critic and doing what it says, etc...	19:01
+bartjol	oh, I can do that.	19:01
@preaction	but every task that someone else can do leaves the big heads more time to work on special stuff (or even extra stuff)	19:01
+perlDreamer	it would be cool to work in the database state/status stuff	19:02
+bartjol	do I need constant internet, or is a working local instaal enough, so I can post results later	19:02
@preaction	a working local 8 will be just fine	19:02
+perlDreamer	just like WebGUI 7 work	19:02
+bartjol	ah, haven't tried that yet	19:02
@preaction	might want to set up a WebGUI fork on github though, and commit your stuff to a new branch (that way you can get comments before you commit to mainline 8)	19:02
@preaction	and we can help with that too	19:02
+bartjol	excellent, but unfortunately I'm off on 2 weeks vacation	19:03
+perlDreamer	where are you sailing to?	19:03
+bartjol	Servia	19:03
@preaction	and it'll be here when you get back, no worries there ;)	19:03
+bartjol	I thought you guys were fast	19:03
@preaction	we are, but there's so much to do	19:03
@preaction	we're adding stuff faster than we're removing it, and we won't get to it all (that's part of the plan)	19:04
+perlDreamer	bartjol, are you sailing all the way around Spain into the Mediterranean?	19:04
+bartjol	well, I try to install 8 this weekend then, I suppose the wre won't work	19:04
+bartjol	no, we go by bus	19:04
@preaction	no, but it's a lot easier. you don't even need apache anymore	19:05
@preaction	just mysql, imagemagick, testEnvironment.pl, and then "cd /data/WebGUI; plackup app.psgi"	19:05
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+bartjol	well, building an environment is good for my skills	19:05
+perlDreamer	preaction: have you seen this: http://neography.com/experiment/circles/solarsystem/	19:05
+bartjol	is that a native mysql install?	19:06
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@preaction	doesn't matter how mysql is installed	19:06
@preaction	perlDreamer: nice	19:06
@preaction	pluto's inaccurate, but still very nice	19:06
+bartjol	cool, no problems there then	19:07
+bartjol	I'll be a WG8-janitor	19:07
+bartjol	but it is feeding time	19:08
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@preaction	yay! about time i got someone else helping me push this cart	19:08
@preaction	wait, do we ever test Asset->update?	19:09
@preaction	i mean, it looks like we have coverage from the myriad of stuff we test that actually uses update	19:10
+perlDreamer	preaction, I think t/Asset.t has an update test	19:11
+perlDreamer	but if you wish, you can add something to t/tests/Test/WebGUI/Asset.pm, too	19:12
@preaction	you mean t/Asset/Asset.t	19:12
@preaction	i'm still working in 7.9	19:12
@preaction	humph. 8 would let me add stuff to the object's metaclass to test serialize => 1	19:13
@preaction	instead, in 7.9, i'd have to add a WebGUI::Asset::TestAsset package in the test script to create a definition that exercises the definition / update relationship stuff	19:14
@preaction	at least, recently, i haven't been complaining as much about needing to write tests. i've been enjoying it	19:15
@preaction	something else i thought about today: Would it be better to wrap WebGUI inside of Catalyst, or would it be better to wrap Catalyst inside of WebGUI?	19:17
@preaction	i'm leaning towards the latter right now, wrapping Cat makes us able to support legacy Assets and Catalyst at the same time (and then, later, move to Catalyst-based applications exclusively)	19:17
@preaction	(if, of course, we decide to move to Cat)	19:17
* perlDreamer doesn't know enough about Catalyst to respond		19:21
@preaction	nor do i, which is why i'm not Sure	19:21
@preaction	but it would be a huge increase in flexibility for WebGUI if it could dispatch to Catalyst apps	19:22
@preaction	and then we could add our own helpers to make things RAD	19:22
@preaction	or use what's available	19:22
@preaction	the idea being to reduce the amount of code we have to maintain in a vaccuum and use the best of the Perl community	19:22
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+perlDreamer	I'd almost rather we reimplement in Catalyst	19:28
+perlDreamer	so that Catalyst could take advantage of things like our Users, Group and other classes	19:28
@preaction	they'd be able to either way, really	19:28
@preaction	WebGUI would give Catalyst $c object a way to reach the stuff it needs to	19:29
@preaction	the problem with reimplementation is always time, we've never had it, we never will	19:29
@preaction	which is why Auth has not been touched in years, not even touched "oh, we'll reimplement"... WHEN?	19:29
@preaction	but if we make ways to slowly migrate to better systems, that will happen. not all at once, but as we have time	19:31
+perlDreamer	sure, that makes sense	19:32
+perlDreamer	like adopting Moose and CHI now	19:32
+perlDreamer	DBIx later	19:32
@preaction	right	19:32
+perlDreamer	and opting for other things down the road	19:32
@preaction	Moose was drastic, CHI not so much (which is why it's in 7.9 as well)	19:32
@preaction	PSGI was drastic, but enables a lot of this migration stuff	19:33
+perlDreamer	in 7.9 it's different though	19:33
@preaction	the code is different, a little, but the configuration is the same (so you can move right to 8)	19:33
+perlDreamer	we'll be fixing Merge problems from WebGUI::Cache to CHI for a long time, until we leave the 7.9 series compeletly	19:33
+perlDreamer	preaction, did you get the export controls email from SF?	19:44
+perlDreamer	I think we qualify for reducing export controls on WebGUI itself	19:44
+perlDreamer	but many of the CPAN modules that we use won't	19:44
@preaction	i got the e-mail, and yes we don't directly implement encryption	19:45
@scrottie	there's a lot of overlap between WebGUI and Catalyst in the dispatch and presentation department. try to mix them and there will be lots of spare screws and nuts laying around on the floor and things hanging off of things. making things interoperate between them though would be awesome.	19:51
@scrottie	mducharme, I had a situation like that once years ago. It sucked, but it was a good learning experience. now if something needs to be up, at the very minimum, there's a cron placing a test order with WWW::Mechanize or the like daily and the client is told that if the daily test order doesn't come in, call me.	19:52
@preaction	yeah, the idea i have is making WebGUI have a single entry point to the asset system (a dispatch method), which could then be overridden to allow Catalyst-based assets	19:52
@scrottie	fun, fun, fun.	19:53
+perlDreamer	scrottie, what were you talking about last night when you mentioned "template escapes"?	19:54
@preaction	right now, cat is possible, it's just not pretty and you don't get much of WebGUI's other stuff unless you build it yourself. (open a session yourself, load the webgui libs, etc...)	19:54
@scrottie	oh, that.	19:54
@scrottie	my alumni dev setup's user manager doesn't have form controls but instead has text like this: User Name [% form_username %]	19:55
@scrottie	[% FOREACH program IN user.alumni_programs_loop %][% program.name %] (^ConvertUTCToTZ('UTC','%b-%Y',[% program.startDate %]);	19:55
@scrottie	etc, etc.	19:55
@scrottie	it worked before I tried to upgrade.	19:55
@scrottie	I'm not excited about the prospect of trying to load the database again. that's an all day affair. granted I could have started it before I took off last night.	19:56
@scrottie	mducharme, btw, I noticed that behavior... spectre detaching before verfying everything was in order... and made a note to myself to fix that.	19:57
@scrottie	I have yet to touch part of this system that hasn't blown up on me.	20:07
@scrottie	on my first try.	20:08
@scrottie	perlDreamer, I'm interested in your thoughts on that before I blow this away and try again.	20:09
@preaction	perhaps the Template Toolkit template driver isn't enabled in your config file?	20:10
@preaction	templateParsers : [ ... ], should have 'TemplateToolkit' in it	20:10
+perlDreamer	scrottie, are you talking about Spectre, or TT?	20:10
@scrottie	talking about two things at once. responding to mducharme's comments from earlier. also talking about my mucked up alumni install.	20:12
+perlDreamer	mucked up alumni install can come from many, many sources	20:12
@preaction	i'd almost say grab the config file from the alumni servers, editing dbuser, dbpass, and dsn appropriately	20:13
+perlDreamer	we are merged!	20:13
@scrottie	"WebGUI::Asset::Template::TemplateToolkit" is in templateParsers... close enough?	20:13
@scrottie	perlDreamer, nice.	20:13
@preaction	scrottie: yeah. guess i was wrong	20:14
@scrottie	successive approximation is often a good strategy.	20:14
@scrottie	slightly closer to correct is often very helpful.	20:14
@preaction	bump your etc/log.conf log level to INFO instead of ERROR or WARN and try again, it might have some more information	20:15
+perlDreamer	scrottie, since I've been on, you haven't pasted anything close to whatever errors you're seeing either	20:15
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r565cf95 / : Merge commit '469c2b72b4ee2eb3828f36123d7f731cf317a6d2' into WebGUI8. All tests passing. - http://bit.ly/aAq1DK	20:15
+perlDreamer	so successive approximation is the only tool you've left us	20:15
+perlDreamer	Haarg, if you'd give WebGUI8 the once over with your usual rigor for the previous merges, I'd appreciate it	20:16
@scrottie	perlDreamer, I'm not seeing errors, I'm seeing unprocessed template tags in the HTML output. I did paste a few examples of it into here and I'd be happy to post a screenshot or whatever.	20:16
@scrottie	<scrottie> [% FOREACH program IN user.alumni_programs_loop %][% program.name %] (^ConvertUTCToTZ('UTC','%b-%Y',[% program.startDate %]);	20:17
@scrottie	I hope that's not "haven't pasted anything close"	20:17
@preaction	wait, the macro didn't get parsed either?	20:17
@preaction	that's weird	20:17
@scrottie	yuppers.	20:17
@preaction	yes, bump your log level up, there should be something in there	20:17
@preaction	at the very least, the macro will whine about not being able to do what it was supposed to do	20:18
+perlDreamer	also, check for the ConvertUTCToTZ macro in your config	20:18
+perlDreamer	maybe the two are related	20:18
+perlDreamer	but who knows?	20:18
@preaction	do we have a "How to debug WebGUI" checklist somewhere?	20:18
@scrottie	"ConvertUTCToTZ" : "ConvertUTCToTZ",	20:18
@preaction	i mean, we've got the "Performance" one	20:18
+perlDreamer	in H::T, template stuff disappears when variables are undefined, or the template pukes	20:18
+perlDreamer	preaction, if we do have one, it would be on the webgui.org wiki	20:19
@preaction	right, but since H::T looks like HTML to browsers, things just go missing. TT isn't like HTML, so that happens	20:19
@scrottie	I haven't touched these templaters in ages.	20:19
+perlDreamer	preaction: can I use Definition to get rid of Class::InsideOut?	20:23
@preaction	why do we need Definition? will normal Moose not work?	20:24
+perlDreamer	well... :)	20:24
@preaction	Haarg was saying Definition may not be a good idea outside of Asset, but i'll let him elaborate	20:24
+perlDreamer	we need to build forms	20:24
+perlDreamer	and it gives us the standard get/set/update/write interfaces	20:24
+perlDreamer	and, it will give us practical experience with using Definition outside of Assets, so if it needs to evolve, we'll learn	20:25
@scrottie	I'd still like to see those methods moved up the inheritance tree rather than mixed in.	20:25
@scrottie	let things subclass a WebGUI::Settable or something.	20:26
+perlDreamer	mixing them in is the right way to do it	20:26
+perlDreamer	inheritance is so 2003	20:26
+perlDreamer	:P	20:26
@scrottie	argh	20:26
@scrottie	so tautological	20:26
@preaction	i had planned a WebGUI::Model or something. and when we adopt DBIC (or other ORM) there will probably have to be a small layer inbetween WebGUI and the ORM (for session, or what-have-you)	20:27
@preaction	but we're not doing that now, we're getting ready for it	20:27
@preaction	and i thought we were moving away from get() update() write() stuff? or is that just the internal API and not the public one?	20:27
+perlDreamer	get/set, yes. It's too easy to pass update an hashref and know that it will DTRT	20:28
+perlDreamer	also, it gives 3rd party code a chance of working.	20:28
@scrottie	I had a rather nice and rather extended conversation about inheritance with doy at YAPC (well, at Varsity Club). Inheritance is not dead. People are merely distracted by shiny things. I'd like to think that KISS never gets old.	20:29
+perlDreamer	like getting all the object properties by calling ->get()	20:29
+perlDreamer	scrottie, roles are easier	20:29
@scrottie	maintaining huge messes of code from people who had way too much fun writing it without regard for it being read does get old though.	20:29
@scrottie	sure they're easier.	20:29
+perlDreamer	it's like ordering pizza	20:29
+perlDreamer	you don't order a pizza->cheese->pepperoni->sausage	20:29
@preaction	right, but ->get() just wraps Moose's meta stuff. all Definition is just a wrapper around Moose meta stuff	20:30
+perlDreamer	you order a pizza->[cheese, pepperoni, sausage]	20:30
@scrottie	C++ has a lot of history there. a lot of smart people made a lot of things really easy and then made a lot of big balls of mud. then they sobered up and started asking good, hard questions about why that happened and wrote a lot of good books on OODA.	20:30
@scrottie	good tools do not keep you from creating big messes.	20:30
@preaction	well, take an easier example: Animal, Dog, Cat. Roles have their part in an environment, just as inheritance does	20:30
@scrottie	quite they opposite. they're narcotic. they let you do it without even noticing.	20:30
@preaction	Role is something you DO, inheritance is something you Are	20:30
+perlDreamer	scrottie, you just repeated the most popular argument against Perl	20:30
@preaction	i am an animal, i do flying	20:31
@preaction	i am a bird	20:31
+perlDreamer	it's not the tool, it's the wielder	20:31
+perlDreamer	preaction: you are a bat	20:31
@scrottie	if you have food->crusty stuff->crusty stuff with toppings, you have a hierarchy.	20:31
@preaction	i am an animal, i am a mammal, i do flying, i'm a bat ;)	20:31
@scrottie	if you have toppings that get mixed and matched, not so much.	20:31
+perlDreamer	scrottie, I think we're really arguing the same thing here, from different sides	20:32
+perlDreamer	pure, in memory objects don't need get/set/update/write	20:32
@preaction	middle road people! middle road!	20:32
+perlDreamer	but persistent objects do	20:32
+perlDreamer	and that's where it makes sense to add a role	20:32
@scrottie	in general, if something can be pushed down the inheritance tree, I personal would prefer to see that happen.	20:32
@scrottie	I'd also like to see people who are so excited about Moose to go read some C++ post-fallout OODA lit.	20:33
@preaction	down into derived classes? or up into parents?	20:33
@scrottie	up into the parents. towards the roots.	20:33
@preaction	k. two ways of looking at the tree ;)	20:33
+perlDreamer	but why clutter up the children with things that they wouldn't use?	20:33
+perlDreamer	look at Wobject.pm for example	20:33
@scrottie	and no, I'm not saying tools are bad; I'm saying smart people with good tools do create messes.	20:33
+perlDreamer	why does Article need to handle database collateral	20:33
@preaction	well, wobject was stupid. the collateral stuff is a role, but the Style stuff is inherited	20:34
@preaction	wobject is basically "this asset can control an entire page"	20:34
@scrottie	put smart people into any role and if they're divorced from good history, they make bad decisions. intelligence is not enough.	20:34
@scrottie	yeah, I can't comment on a lot of this design stuff.	20:34
@preaction	but again, we're doing both, and the touchstone is "AM vs. DO"	20:34
@scrottie	only make generalizations.	20:34
@preaction	I am a Wobject, I do Collateral	20:34
+perlDreamer	but Wobject also means, "description, style, and other things"	20:35
@scrottie	that's the result, sure. but the construction is another matter.	20:35
+perlDreamer	or, take Sku for an example	20:35
+perlDreamer	every sku has settings for shipping	20:35
+perlDreamer	even coupons!	20:35
@scrottie	I don't have a problem with the result. but anything resembling a mess of #includes is going to give me pause.	20:35
@scrottie	yuck.	20:35
@preaction	so wobject is an assembly of things we do, but if i'm a wobject i want to do all those things	20:35
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@preaction	i just don't like the idea of, yeah, 8 "with ROLE" in every single Asset I make	20:36
@preaction	because then we get "with MY::ROLE::BUNDLE"	20:37
@preaction	or, eventually, "extends MY::SUPERCLASS::WITH::MY::ROLE::BUNDLE"	20:37
+perlDreamer	preaction, when we do that, then you have to bust the bundles, or not use inheritcance, or write roles which overwrite roles	20:37
+perlDreamer	but, in any case, let me make the original question pointed	20:38
@preaction	you're thinking 100%, i'm thinking 90%	20:38
@preaction	there's always a way to get that last 10%	20:38
+perlDreamer	it's been historic WebGUI style to have ->get return all props, and ->update set all props and write to the db	20:38
@preaction	but if we make 90% as easy as one line, we're good	20:38
+perlDreamer	it's everywhere through the packages	20:38
+perlDreamer	Definition provides that	20:38
@scrottie	I am so god damn tempted right now to make this thing work under Continuity so I can debug and inspect it as it runs a web hit so I can try to figure out interactively why stuff isn't being templated rather than trying to go back to first principles and deduce why it isn't working.	20:39
@preaction	well, before that it was individual accessors, then ->get and ->update, now individual accessors AND ->get and ->update	20:39
@scrottie	I guess that's the gist of it. I'm cranky right now because 2010 is way too late to be trying to ever deduce from first principles why anything in code isn't working, ever.	20:39
@preaction	really wishing Haarg would chime in on why he was saying Definition shouldn't be used for anything other than Asset	20:39
@preaction	because i don't remember	20:39
+perlDreamer	was it in channel?	20:39
@preaction	no, at YAPC	20:40
* perlDreamer sighs		20:40
@scrottie	hell, I almost ditched work and went to a programmable logic class. even in Verilog you don't try to deduce from reading through stuff why stuff doesn't work. you interactively debug.	20:40
@preaction	scrottie: there's a way to get the debugger working inside mod_perl / apache, and it's not too awful.	20:40
@preaction	i've had to use it a couple times	20:40
@scrottie	I've certainly run mod_perl under gdb. that's awful.	20:41
@preaction	but did upping the log level and trying again show any fun info or warn-level messages?	20:41
+perlDreamer	I think we distracted him with a good debate	20:41
@scrottie	yeah. bad data going into the macro.	20:41
@scrottie	but nothing about why TT isn't working.	20:41
@scrottie	no, I distracted myself. but then I realized that on a meta level I had a solid argument.	20:42
@scrottie	and I'm still tempted to get this all going under Continuity.	20:42
@preaction	figures. we do some fucked-up capturing of real errors and never end up displaying the message	20:42
@scrottie	bad.	20:42
@preaction	is the template set to use Template Toolkit?	20:42
@scrottie	hell if I know.	20:42
+perlDreamer	edit it, and look at the Template Parser setting	20:42
@scrottie	it worked before I tried to upgrade.	20:42
+perlDreamer	or, check the db	20:42
@preaction	if you edit the asset, you should be able to get at its templates (in the Display tab). there's an Edit button next to it	20:43
@scrottie	alright.	20:43
@preaction	sorry to mention something maybe obvious, but Template is installed right? i'd think it'd be more vocal about that, but i've been wrong before	20:44
@preaction	there's a reason why 8 has "Normalize error messages" in its task list. debugging is a bitch. we don't yell about real problems, and scream about things that we have no control over (user input, for example)	20:45
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kayiwa	I recently inherited a WebGUI 7.5.40 and I've had three failed attempts. My understanding is the "stop point" is 7.6.10 then 7.6.35	20:47
kayiwa	I attempted manual to 7.6.10 unsuccessfully	20:47
kayiwa	with this as the constant error	20:47
kayiwa	Deleting AdminBar templates... Can't call method "setScratch" on an undefined value at ../lib/WebGUI/AssetTrash.pm line 256.	20:47
kayiwa	Processing upgrade executable failed!	20:47
@preaction	you can go from 7.5.40 directly to 7.6.34	20:47
+perlDreamer	kayiwa, that's a bad asset in the database	20:48
+perlDreamer	mmmm...	20:48
@preaction	no, that's a bad workflowId	20:48
+perlDreamer	yeah	20:48
kayiwa	so kill the workflow and attempt this?	20:48
@preaction	no, remove from settings table where name="purgeWorkflow" and try again	20:49
@preaction	but seriously, you can go to 7.6.34 right away	20:49
+perlDreamer	DELETE from settings where name="purgeWorkflow"	20:49
kayiwa	okay	20:50
@preaction	pfft, that was left as an exercise for the reader, to make them understand to NEVER execute a SQL snippet from an IRC channel without understanding what it does ;)	20:50
* perlDreamer pokes Haarg again in the hope he'll talk about Definition		20:52
+perlDreamer	preaction, should AssetTrash log an error if that happens again?	20:53
@preaction	yes, it should log an error and not explode	20:54
@preaction	looks like it currently will still explode	20:54
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * rdb96547 / (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt docs/gotcha.txt): Add missing docs about needing Net::Twitter. - http://bit.ly/c2bAiY	21:03
+perlDreamer	preaction, isn't kayiwa going to need that workflow later?	21:04
+perlDreamer	well, I guess it's been deleted, so it won't matter at this point	21:04
@preaction	it doesn't exist, yeah	21:04
@preaction	it's gone, no coming back	21:04
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r61008c8 / (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/AssetTrash.pm): Check that the Purge workflow exists before trying to run it. Fixes bug #11698 - http://bit.ly/9CwI7A	21:09
@preaction	you know, a lot of this definition stuff in Asset is completely untested	21:09
@preaction	allowEmpty?	21:09
@preaction	displayOnly?	21:10
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * rbe8a502 / (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/AssetTrash.pm): Check that the Purge workflow exists before trying to run it. Fixes bug #11698 - http://bit.ly/90Heua	21:10
+perlDreamer	fixed	21:10
+perlDreamer	preaction, not only is it untested, but it won't even be used in 8	21:10
@preaction	which means i'll make the test its own commit, because it won't merge	21:11
+perlDreamer	ugh	21:12
@preaction	well, it'll merge, but it won't pass	21:12
@preaction	also, i'll merge 7.9 into 8 after i push, because i need what i just did in 8 (so you won't have to deal with it!	21:13
+perlDreamer	this is how I do that	21:14
+perlDreamer	merge	21:14
+perlDreamer	then fix all *.pm files	21:14
+perlDreamer	run t/00_compile.t to check everything	21:14
+perlDreamer	then fix any tests	21:14
+perlDreamer	after that, you have to fix the upgrade stuff	21:14
@preaction	i'll have to do it tomorrow morning, gotta drive to oshkosh to maybe meet someone about the apt.	21:15
+perlDreamer	got a renter?	21:16
@preaction	not yet, trying to	21:16
@preaction	it's fun, because people seem interested, then they don't return my callbacks or e-mails	21:16
@preaction	makes me want to hire a management agency, but that'd destroy my already slim margins	21:17
+perlDreamer	they'd just up your rates, anyway	21:18
+perlDreamer	preaction: is this what you were thinking of for the demise of Session->Env: http://gist.github.com/460338 ?	21:20
@preaction	gallery no longer able to be instanciated?	21:21
+perlDreamer	http://gist.github.com/460340	21:22
@preaction	why not request->getIp? getIp doesn't just do REMOTE_ADDR	21:22
@preaction	it also does X_FORWARDED_FOR	21:22
+perlDreamer	it does?	21:22
Haarg	not any more	21:22
@preaction	ah	21:22
+perlDreamer	Haarg!	21:22
@preaction	then yes	21:23
+perlDreamer	brb, I have to watch Tim do a 180	21:23
Haarg	$session->request->address	21:23
@scrottie	[Thu Jul 01 09:10:34 2010] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] File does not exist: /data/domains/alumni.state.gov/public/extras/wobject/Alumni, referer: http://alumni.state.gov:8000/manageusers ... I rsync'd extras from the source tarball. where would alumni specific extras come from?	21:23
@preaction	symlinks from the dosalumni repository i think	21:24
@scrottie	ah, duh.	21:24
Haarg	preaction, x-forwarded-for is currently unhandled because it is dependent on your server setup how it should be done. Plack::Middleware::ReverseProxy is what we'll want to use for that though.	21:25
@preaction	ahh	21:26
+perlDreamer	If Session->open isn't passed an PSGI env hash, should it make one?	21:33
+perlDreamer	where should the burden of doing that rest?	21:33
@preaction	i'd think to open an existing session you'd need to know at least which session you were opening. is that handled by the env hash or is the id passed before that?	21:34
+perlDreamer	for this particular case, it's during upgrades	21:36
+perlDreamer	so it's a brand new session	21:36
@preaction	so it'd be Session->new right? and new could do the hash if no hash existed	21:36
+perlDreamer	there is no session->new	21:36
+perlDreamer	only open	21:36
@preaction	no create?	21:37
+perlDreamer	strike two!	21:37
@preaction	then the answer depends on haarg's progress with WebGUI::Site, but probably means "yes, autocreate for now"	21:37
* preaction goes to Oshkosh		21:37
+perlDreamer	good drive, dude	21:38
Haarg	in the past, we just did without a request object if we weren't given one.	21:40
Haarg	what upgrade thing are you dealing with specifically?	21:41
+perlDreamer	globally, in 8 I did s/->env->getIp/->request->address/;	21:41
+perlDreamer	this included a line in Session/Var.pm	21:41
+perlDreamer	sub start: lastIP => $session->request->address,	21:42
+perlDreamer	start is called by Session->open	21:42
+perlDreamer	so now every Session needs to have a valid request	21:42
Haarg	for now i guess just make a fake one. alternatively change that one case to $session->request && $session->request->address	21:43
+perlDreamer	I made a fake one, like WebGUI::Test does	21:44
+perlDreamer	Haarg, any comments on using Definition for non-assets?	21:44
+perlDreamer	preaction mentioned that, during YAPC, it might not be best	21:44
Haarg	it was designed with that in mind	21:45
Haarg	but it may be over complicating things	21:45
kayiwa	FWIW I get the same result after deleting purgeWorkflow	21:45
Haarg	where did you have in mind?	21:45
+perlDreamer	Shop/Vendor	21:45
+perlDreamer	and any other class that uses Class::InsideOut and has get/set/update methods	21:45
+perlDreamer	I did Shop/Pay.pm and Shop/Ship.pm in pure Moose because they're only basically objects in that they have 1 method and session	21:47
+perlDreamer	but these other ones have real accessors and mutators	21:47
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Haarg	instead of using definition, i think using just moose would be better	21:48
Haarg	for that case at least	21:49
Haarg	we may want to separate out the ->set/->get/->update stuff to make it a role that could be used outside of definition	21:49
+perlDreamer	with get_all_settable_list that won't be easy	21:52
+perlDreamer	we could just stick a simple one in WebGUI::Role::Object	21:53
+perlDreamer	actually, to be explicitly clear and to distinguish it from WebGUI::Definition::Role::Object, it should be WebGUI::Role::WebGUIObject	21:57
+perlDreamer	time to make lunch for kiddos	22:06
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* perlDreamer is back		23:01
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r005b9da / (20 files in 10 dirs): Move session->env->getIp into session->request->address - http://bit.ly/dhb7zA	23:12
Haarg	preaction, have you seen github's new organizations thing?	23:13
Haarg	looks perfect for plainblack	23:13
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+perlDreamer	Haarg, he drove to oshkosh	23:18
Haarg	oh yeah	23:19
* Haarg dum		23:19
+perlDreamer	nah, you just need to eat some lunch/dinner	23:19
Haarg	in progress	23:19
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+perlDreamer	you know, I'm no longer convinced that Americans are the most culturally insensive nation in the world	23:20
+perlDreamer	expecting everyone, everywhere to speak English	23:20
+perlDreamer	that all changed when I started getting SPAM in UTF-8	23:21
+perlmonkey2	If you think Americans are culturally insensitive, you should meet a Texan.	23:24
+perlDreamer	at least they speak english :)	23:24
Haarg	i get a lot of russian spam	23:25
Haarg	at one point i was wondering what it was all about, so i translated one of them	23:25
Haarg	they were trying to sell their spam sending service	23:25
+perlDreamer	lol	23:25
+perlDreamer	I thought you were going to say it was a Nigerian bank account scam	23:25
+perlDreamer	Found in URL.pm: $self->session->url->page :/	23:27
+perlDreamer	to be exact, WebGUI::Session::Url	23:27
Haarg	yeah	23:32
Haarg	i've seen that in a few other places as well	23:32
+perlDreamer	sometimes I wonder why you guys keep me around	23:32
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* perlDreamer takes kiddos for a bike ride while prove bubbles		23:44
+perlDreamer	when the whole family comes to madcity, I think we may need to bring bikes!	23:44
Haarg	you should	23:45
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+perlDreamer	I've been trying to get the kids on bikes for years	00:09
+perlDreamer	and they finally got it about two weeks ago	00:09
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+perlDreamer	turns out that killing Session::Env is more fun than pulling weeds	01:29
+perlDreamer	prepare a Eulogy for Session::Env	02:11
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@scrottie	Session::Env, I hardly knew ye.	03:21
@scrottie	bah. all of the things this upgrade were supposed to fix in alumni are still broken.	03:21
@scrottie	was supposed	03:22
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@scrottie	sshfs isn't going to cut it. I have to download all of these uploads folder items.	03:35
@scrottie	hrmrmrmmm.	03:36
+perlDreamer	Session::Env is dead	03:41
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * re0177dc / (27 files in 14 dirs): Remove Session::Env, migrate code to Plack::Request object in Session, and WebGUI::Session::Request - http://bit.ly/cUb5zm	03:41
* perlDreamer goes out to get a new battery for the laptop		03:41
@scrottie	again?	05:05
+perlDreamer	had to order it	05:29
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+perlDreamer	and it arrived today	05:35
+perlDreamer	we went by bicycle and light rail to go get it	05:36
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SDuensin	FRIDAY!	16:22
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knowmad	morning all	17:32
@preaction	morning	17:32
knowmad	i'm hoping for some advice on upgrading from 7.7 to 7.8 and having macros go missing	17:32
knowmad	i don't see anything in gotchas and no errors in logs; macros are just being output to the page	17:34
knowmad	we did make sure that they're plugged in -- they are defined in conf file	17:34
knowmad	nm, we found it -- custom path for preload.custom that didn't get copied over to the new directory	17:35
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+perlDreamer	so, after trying to write WebGUI::Role::WebGUIObject, I see what you mean about Definition being overkill for simple objects, Haarg	22:03
+perlDreamer	time for lunch, and to crash the battery	22:17
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * rc159067 / (docs/migration.txt lib/WebGUI/Shop/Vendor.pm t/Shop/Vendor.t): Remove Class::InsideOut from Shop/Vendor.t Update migration notes, tests and POD. - http://bit.ly/9VE4E3	01:18
+perlDreamer	patspam, preaction, Haarg: please have a look at c159067 and let me know if that's an acceptable compromise for the change from Class::InsideOut, to WebGUI::Definition	01:18
+perlDreamer	it's compatible with what was there before, with the difference of having to manually serialize the newly created object to the db.	01:19
+perlDreamer	if y'all are okay with that, I'll start migrating the 19 other classes to it	01:24
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * rc687ec6 / lib/WebGUI/Keyword.pm : Convert WebGUI::Keyword to use Moose. - http://bit.ly/aIQV0T	02:26
Haarg	perlDreamer, moose things should probably all have weak_ref on session	02:28
+perlDreamer	why, Haarg?	02:29
+perlDreamer	we aren't likely to make a loop of Shop/Ship.pm to Session and back	02:29
Haarg	i was mainly thinking for consistency	02:30
+perlDreamer	but if we weaken it unnecessarily, won't it get cleaned up too early?	02:30
Haarg	only if the main reference to it would go away	02:31
Haarg	which it won't in any normal situation	02:32
Haarg	might want to ask preaction what he thinks	02:34
Haarg	i know i've talked to him about this stuff before, but i don't remember what our full conclusion was	02:35
+perlDreamer	y'all need to carry tape recorders	02:37
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r97b6a58 / lib/WebGUI/Friends.pm : Move WebGUI::Friends over to Moose from Class::InsideOut - http://bit.ly/cd2wGo	02:39
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r3807197 / lib/WebGUI/Shop/Admin.pm : Move WebGUI::Shop::Admin from Class::InsideOut over to Moose. - http://bit.ly/csfjUA	02:44
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scrottie	what makes the default install do that lovely thing where it shows the queries it runs in-line in the page?	03:56
scrottie	I'd go peek at the template but I don't want to shut this thing down and fire that up again.	03:56
scrottie	incidentally, this takes for ever to do anything. it's maddening.	03:57
+perlDreamer	scrottie, that's debug mode	04:02
+perlDreamer	It's in the settings	04:02
+perlDreamer	Admin Console -> Settings -> Miscellaneous	04:02
+perlDreamer	or, via wgd ...	04:02
scrottie	hrm.	04:02
+perlDreamer	wgd setting debugMode=1 (I think)	04:02
scrottie	I set that and changed log level to DEBUG in log.conf but output goes to the log file, not the browser.	04:03
scrottie	alright, let's see...	04:03
+perlDreamer	do you have debug restricted to any IP address?	04:03
+perlDreamer	also, for certain kinds of output, it will omit debugMode	04:04
+perlDreamer	since that would break things like RSS and JSON	04:04
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scrottie	yeah. I also went digging around in ErrorHandler.pm trying to figure it out and saw that.	04:05
+perlDreamer	holler if you have more questions, I'll be in and out most of the night so I can pot-shoot problems as you raise them	04:05
scrottie	still no go. bleah.	04:07
scrottie	thanks though.	04:07
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+perlDreamer	scrottie, I hate to ask this, but it trips everybody up	04:14
+perlDreamer	browser side caching?	04:14
scrottie	cache is off.	04:14
+perlDreamer	on your side?	04:15
scrottie	yup. I'm running entirely without a cache. it's just plain off.	04:33
scrottie	in the browser.	04:33
scrottie	it kills me but I think I have to move dev over to the fast machines. the laptop is just too small and slow.	04:33
* scrottie sighs		04:34
scrottie	looks like 127.0.0.1 doesn't match for some reason. hardcoded a 'return 1;' into canShowBasedOnIP(). that made it go.	04:39
scrottie	alright. thanks again, and have a good evening. I better stop.	04:41
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * rbf7c7aa / t/Asset/Wobject/InOutBoard.t : Make the view test more robust. It has been failing randomly. - http://bit.ly/a9d4cf	19:41
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@scrottie	http://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/161493 fwiw	02:35
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@preaction	sweet. i could totally make a script that syncs a webgui wiki with a git repo (webgui's assets have workflows, the workflow could sync to the git repo, then a periodic sync from the repo)	03:10
@preaction	Haarg: is your WGD asset format in a module I can consume somehow?	03:10
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Haarg	preaction, it's in WGDev::Asset. a rough combination of yaml and other formatting. nothing more general than that.	15:20
Haarg	i had intended to set up that automatic dump of the default webgui content to a git repo but never got it quite worked out	15:21
Haarg	wgd has a export-branch command though which could be used to dump out an entire wiki to files	15:22
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r90f0a9b / (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Thingy.pm): Fix date field type detection during import. Fixes bug #11692. - http://bit.ly/bdBDY3	19:03
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * rf3abbf3 / t/Asset/Wobject/InOutBoard.t : Make the view test more robust. It has been failing randomly. - http://bit.ly/a2P2yM	19:03
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * rdd25201 / (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Thingy.pm): Fix date field type detection during import. Fixes bug #11692. - http://bit.ly/cOO4JP	19:04
+perlDreamer	it's very quiet this morning	19:04
+perlDreamer	is everybody on holiday?	19:04
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r40e6d70 / t/Mail/Send.t : Add a test for UTF-8 handling in the subject. - http://bit.ly/cvDSg0	20:22
+perlDreamer	morning, scrottie	20:27
@scrottie	heya perlDreamer.	20:29
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * raed2c13 / (3 files in 3 dirs): Fix double body encoding when sending emails. Added tests. Fixes bug #11672. - http://bit.ly/dpAyfV	21:57
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * rc9ed278 / t/Mail/Send.t : Add a test for UTF-8 handling in the subject. - http://bit.ly/bMQlfL	21:58
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r8fd1d83 / (3 files in 3 dirs): Fix double body encoding when sending emails. Added tests. Fixes bug #11672. - http://bit.ly/biujXG	21:58
+perlDreamer	patspam, and all you other foreign language speakers...	21:59
+perlDreamer	you may want to merge that bugfix back to better handle UTF-8 in emails	21:59
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+perlDreamer	well, it seems that I've been wrong all this time	23:32
+perlDreamer	there are two CMSes built with Catalyst	23:32
+perlDreamer	there's Web site in a box: http://code.google.com/p/websiteinabox/source/list	23:33
+perlDreamer	not touched on Google code since 2008	23:33
+perlDreamer	and EasyCMS2, http://easycms2.palle.net/	23:34
+perlDreamer	which doesn't seem to be touched since 2007	23:34
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--- Day changed Tue Jul 06 2010
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@scrottie	this rsync is still going and one rsync is enough to make DSL suck.	01:06
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+perlDreamer	Haarg, I could use some utf8 help with this sometime: http://gist.github.com/464754	01:22
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+perlDreamer	nm, I didn't tell Perl to consider those as UTF-8, and they were borked as they were written out to the DB.	02:15
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@preaction	so we can be the third CMS that uses catalyst! yay!	09:26
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SDuensin	Greetings.	16:30
+MrHairgrease	GREASINGS!!!	16:30
SDuensin	Hey man.	16:30
+MrHairgrease	howdy!]	16:31
SDuensin	How's things in your corner of the world?	16:31
+MrHairgrease	pretty good	16:32
+MrHairgrease	and in yours?	16:32
SDuensin	Off to a day of suck so far. :-(	16:32
+MrHairgrease	That won't be too bad	16:33
+MrHairgrease	if you like suck	16:33
SDuensin	Mostly just me. Kind of in a foul mood.	16:35
+MrHairgrease	that's okay	16:39
+MrHairgrease	if you like foul =)	16:39
SDuensin	I had a disk scan running for almost three days... Until MS rebooted me for an update.	16:40
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+perlDreamer	this just seems kind of flawed to me: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=194775&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1441534&highlight=	19:32
+perlDreamer	Chipotle, the restaurant chain, says they'll send $10K to a charity organization for every 100K email messages they get	19:32
+perlDreamer	seems like the geeks of the world could bankrupt them pretty easily :)	19:33
* perlDreamer heads home from the coffee shop. Back in 20.		19:41
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+perlDreamer	preaction: http://search.cpan.org/~samv/MooseX-Timestamp-0.06/lib/MooseX/TimestampTZ.pm	20:01
+perlDreamer	Moose timestamp type, in our favorite MySQL format, with full timezone support	20:01
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r1abe035 / (lib/WebGUI/Session/Url.pm t/Session/Url.t): Refactor test to move makeCompliant tests out of urlize. Tweak makeCompliant for speed and clarity. - http://bit.ly/cmDAJF	20:24
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r655efc4 / t/Asset/Post/notification.t : Add tests for double encoding of UTF8 content in Posts and email notificaitons. - http://bit.ly/aJEhTn	20:24
@scrottie	mornin.	20:25
+perlDreamer	yo, scrottie!	20:25
+perlDreamer	how's the alumni stuff?	20:25
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r39738a4 / t/Asset/Post/notification.t : Add tests for double encoding of UTF8 content in Posts and email notificaitons. - http://bit.ly/9yNXL2	20:25
@scrottie	the photo approval screen makes no sense to me whatsoever.	20:26
@scrottie	all of this was way too slow on the Linux laptop. I got everything going on the big machine just yesterday. stuff is still rsycning down. FUSE didn't allow for write.	20:27
@scrottie	I'm looking at API for programmatically resizing all of the thumbnails. shouldn't be too bad.	20:27
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@scrottie	don't know what the procedure is for exporting templates and importing them elsewhere. I saw something about exporting assets. that might be it.	20:28
+patspam	scrottie: wgd package	20:29
@scrottie	ahh.	20:29
@scrottie	about half of the time, the answer is wgd.	20:29
@scrottie	mornin' patspam.	20:29
+patspam	heya :)	20:29
@preaction	wgd is the faster way to do just about everything	20:32
+perlDreamer	<3 wgd	20:33
+perlDreamer	someone needs to make a T-shirt for that	20:33
+perlDreamer	scrottie, in general, to move any asset from one site to another, you use packages.	20:33
+perlDreamer	Edit the asset, in the Metadata tab, set "Make package" to yes.	20:34
@scrottie	cool.	20:34
+perlDreamer	then, in the Asset Manager, you can export it as a .wgpkg file (.tar.gz aliased)	20:34
@scrottie	then a package pops out?	20:34
@scrottie	awesome.	20:34
+perlDreamer	next, in the other site, import the package file in the Asset Manager.	20:34
+perlDreamer	It will be instanced where the Asset Manager is pointing, so choose carefully	20:34
@scrottie	ieeee!!	20:37
@scrottie	is the basic operation there a replace or add-child?	20:37
+perlDreamer	depends	20:37
+perlDreamer	if the asset already exists, it is replace current	20:37
@preaction	i thought it was addRevision	20:38
+perlDreamer	I think.. if the asset doesn't exist (by checking assetId), it does addChild	20:39
+perlDreamer	otherwise, it does addRev	20:39
@scrottie	replaced if the assetId matches?	20:39
+perlDreamer	yes, although there are also issues with the revisionDate	20:39
@scrottie	replaced/addRev'd if the assetId already exists?	20:39
+perlDreamer	if the asset exists on the site, and there is a newer revision than what the package contains, you'll never see the imported revision	20:39
+perlDreamer	technically, what you're importing as a package isn't an asset, it is a revision of an asset	20:40
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r4366871 / t/Asset/Post/notification.t : UTF-8 urls are not allowed in WebGUI 7.8. - http://bit.ly/9kw9IJ	21:03
@preaction	well, an asset doesn't really exist w/o a revision	21:03
@preaction	addChild == INSERT INTO asset (...), addRevision	21:04
+perlDreamer	exactly, but it's possible to import a package, and not see the content show up due to revision control	21:04
+perlDreamer	that was the source of all the 7.8 upgrade issues	21:04
@preaction	right, that's one of a few pitfalls of packages that i hope to address someday	21:04
@preaction	Haarg: are there any docs on the new upgrade system? I'm about to ask you a question i swear i've asked twice before: how does it handle stop versions?	21:06
+perlDreamer	I added a switch to importPackage for upgrades to handle that issue	21:06
+perlDreamer	(not stop versions, but revision issues on packages)	21:06
@preaction	am i wrong, or should an OS reload take about 20 minutes? how long does it take to install CentOS 5?	21:26
@preaction	it's been 3 hours.	21:26
+perlDreamer	have to format the partitions?	21:26
@preaction	a quick format takes like 30 seconds	21:27
+perlDreamer	is this a real box, or a VM?	21:27
@preaction	a real box	21:27
+perlDreamer	all packages locally available, or a internet based install?	21:27
@preaction	it is a default CentOS 5 DVD afaik	21:28
+perlDreamer	Red Hat-like installs can suffer from dependency hell with conflict resolution on some boxes	21:28
+perlDreamer	are you sure it's actually doing anything, or just spinning?	21:28
@preaction	but remind me next time, we'll start moving systems to EC2 as they die. it would take less than half the time...	21:28
@preaction	i don't know, i ask them, they install the OS	21:28
* perlDreamer is not impressed by the EC2 boxen that I've seen		21:28
@preaction	yeah, they did it wrong. we have one, and we did it right	21:29
SquOnk	Greetings.	21:43
SquOnk	Is there are reason for the userSession table to grow unbounded?	21:44
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, what do you mean by that?	21:45
+perlDreamer	lots and lots of sessions?	21:45
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Yes. Old sessions not being removed ever.	21:45
+perlDreamer	What's the session timeout set to in settings?	21:46
+perlDreamer	and is the ExpireOldSessions workflow running?	21:46
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Let me check	21:48
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Session timeout is set at 5 minutes.	21:50
+perlDreamer	which version of WebGUI is it running?	21:50
SquOnk	7.8.18	21:50
SquOnk	I have Delete Expired Sessions in Hourly Maintenance, is that it?	21:52
+perlDreamer	yes, make sure the cron job for that still exists	21:52
SquOnk	perlDreamer: It's there	21:52
+perlDreamer	well, the most likely problem is that some activity is causing a problem so that the Delete Expired Sessions is never run	21:53
+perlDreamer	so webgui log file check next	21:53
SquOnk	But looking at the code for DeleteExpiredSessions...	21:53
SquOnk	...there's no "DELETE FROM userSession" at all	21:54
+perlDreamer	no, that would be bad	21:54
+perlDreamer	$session->close	21:54
+perlDreamer	"Use the API, SquOnk"	21:54
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Right.	21:55
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Use the API for the other confusing deletes there, then.	21:55
+perlDreamer	You can't	21:55
+perlDreamer	it only does the direct SQL when there's breakage	21:55
SquOnk	perlDreamer: All right, so the probable cause is a previous activity not succeeding... I'll check into that.	21:56
+perlDreamer	you can also try running t/Workflow/Activity/DeleteExpiredSessions.t	21:56
+perlDreamer	and make sure it passes	21:56
* perlDreamer takes a lunch break		22:22
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Haarg	preaction, new upgrade system doesn't have anything for stop versions right now	23:02
@preaction	ok	23:03
SquOnk	Haarg: 3-1 looks enough	23:12
Haarg	?	23:14
SquOnk	Haarg: Netherlands over Uruguay, WC semi-finals	23:14
SquOnk	Haarg: But now I realize I wrote to the wrong window anyway...	23:15
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+perlDreamer	I could become a Netherlands soccer fan for a little while	23:38
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Meh... it was over for me when Germany crushed Argentina :9	23:39
SquOnk	...worst defeat in WC since Netherlands beat us 4-0 in 1974	23:39
+perlDreamer	oy, much testing badness	23:41
+perlDreamer	the tests don't work correctly on the WRE	23:41
--- Day changed Wed Jul 07 2010
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SquOnk	What does it mean for a workflow to be 'waiting 1'?	00:22
SquOnk	Shows as 'running' but never ends...	00:22
+perlDreamer	that's usually a signal that it was running	00:22
+perlDreamer	then ran out of time, so it releases for a second	00:23
+perlDreamer	then picks up again	00:23
+perlDreamer	if you have a huge backlog of sessions to delete, it could run for a very, very long time	00:23
+perlDreamer	try monitoring the number of sessions in userSession, and make sure they keep going down	00:23
SquOnk	perlDreamer: I see. So it's normal behaviour.	00:23
+perlDreamer	perhaps, yes	00:23
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mducharme-laptop	any idea on when there will be a 64-bit WRE?	00:29
SquOnk	perlDreamer: When you say 'picks up' you mean _restarts_ or _continues from the point where it was suspended_?	00:30
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, good question	00:30
SquOnk	lol	00:30
+perlDreamer	mducharme-laptop, no 64-bit WRE has been released	00:30
+perlDreamer	but there are patches and contributions that show how to make one, onesself	00:31
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, it reinvokes the same query again	00:31
+perlDreamer	which means it starts scanning from the top of the list	00:32
+perlDreamer	but there's no explicit order given	00:32
+perlDreamer	It would probably be more efficient if it did something like...	00:32
+perlDreamer	select sessionId, lastPageView from userSession where expires<? order by expires DESC	00:32
+perlDreamer	so that it starts from the "END" and works its way back to more recent sessions	00:33
+perlDreamer	SquOnk: is the number of sessions decreasing over time?	00:33
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Sloooowly. This site has a LOT of users coming in and out for very brief periods of time...	00:34
SquOnk	perlDreamer: ...with changing IP addresses.	00:34
+perlDreamer	are they logging in?	00:34
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Yes.	00:35
SquOnk	perlDreamer: They have to. It's an internet banking application.	00:35
+perlDreamer	and that's the reason for the strict 10 minute timeout	00:36
+perlDreamer	uh, 5 minute session timeout	00:36
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Exactly	00:36
+perlDreamer	how many sessions are in the table?	00:37
SquOnk	perlbot: 46900	00:37
+perlDreamer	well, if you delete them directly with SQL, it will leave thousands of orphaned records in other tables which would all have to be cleaned up by hand	00:38
+perlDreamer	so I don't recommend that you do that	00:38
+perlDreamer	Spectre and WebGUI are trying to do the best they can to keep up with your influx and the strict timeout	00:38
SquOnk	perlDreamer: We did a truncate of the table on saturday :/	00:40
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SquOnk	perlDreamer: We had like 350k rows then	00:40
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Where should we look for cruft?	00:41
+perlDreamer	userSessionScratch	00:41
SquOnk	perlDreamer: We truncated that too.	00:41
+perlDreamer	by row, or by matchind sessionIds?	00:41
SquOnk	perlDreamer: truncate as in truncate everything :-)	00:42
+perlDreamer	ah	00:42
+perlDreamer	that would certainly do it :)	00:42
+perlDreamer	places to look for cruft	00:42
+perlDreamer	1) The query for selecting sessionIds	00:43
+perlDreamer	like I suggested, it may be faster to sort them in reverse order and deal with them from the end each time	00:43
SquOnk	perlDreamer: How can we run the workflow "one shot" without it being interrupted and restarted?	00:43
+perlDreamer	I don't think it's the restarting that's killing you	00:44
+perlDreamer	since it will run for 55 seconds before hitting the timeout	00:44
+perlDreamer	and then sleep for 1 second	00:44
+perlDreamer	and then keep running until the activity returns done	00:44
+perlDreamer	how many sessions is it closing, per second, on average?	00:45
mducharme-laptop	perlDreamer I know there are patches.. but it would be nice to have a compiled option	00:48
mducharme-laptop	me and my colleagues at other shops are only deploying 64-bit servers these days	00:48
mducharme-laptop	32-bit is so 20th century :)	00:49
+perlDreamer	ha!	00:49
mducharme-laptop	even if the compiled option is only for one platform, like centos, at least that's something	00:49
mducharme-laptop	I'm running 32-bit wre on 64-bit centos 5.5 for now	00:50
+perlDreamer	won't the 32-bit code run on the 64-bit servers?	00:50
mducharme-laptop	yup but there is a performance hit	00:50
Haarg	in what way?	00:51
mducharme-laptop	at least the servers we have, they process 32-bit code more slowly than the matching 64-bit	00:51
Haarg	odd	00:51
mducharme-laptop	there has been noticable improvement going from 32-bit apache and tomcat etc to 64-bit on servers.. I do not know how webgui would be impacted but I imagine similarly	00:52
mducharme-laptop	so, I think you should have more of an effort for official supported 64-bit	00:54
mducharme-laptop	that is easy to install and does not require patches	00:54
Haarg	what kind of servers are they?	00:54
mducharme-laptop	I have a bunch of IBM servers and sun servers	00:54
mducharme-laptop	I can really notice the performance difference going up to 64-bit	00:55
mducharme-laptop	I think that perhaps the servers are just so tweaked for running 64-bit code	00:55
mducharme-laptop	that they do the 32-bit stuff more slowly	00:55
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, I see several places where repeated, chained method calls could be stripped out by using dedicated variables	00:57
+perlDreamer	but I wouldn't want to make those kind of changes without some real performance data for comparisons	00:57
mducharme-laptop	I'm sure if you did some surveys you would find out that the majority of your users are mostly setting up 64-bit servers..	00:58
mducharme-laptop	for new installs	00:58
SquOnk	perlDreamer: We've just cleaned up userSession and userSessionScratch by hand to about 300 sessions...	00:59
SquOnk	perlDreamer: ...and we'll see if the workflow can keep up	01:00
SquOnk	perlDreamer: We'll probably have to run it more often.	01:00
Haarg	preaction, perlDreamer, any opposition to merging my upgrades stuff?	01:01
+perlDreamer	given how spectre works, that won't matter	01:01
@preaction	nope	01:01
@preaction	go head	01:01
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, if you try to run it more often, and it's falling behind, it won't spawn more processes	01:01
mducharme-laptop	in fact, I would amost go so far to say that there is probably not much need anymore for a continued 32-bit version of the WRE..	01:02
+perlDreamer	SquOnk: it will keep running until there are no more sessions to clean up	01:02
SquOnk	perlDreamer: True. But if running it more frequently than hourly keeps the amount of work short, it has a better chance to keep up with the new sessions, don't you think?	01:02
+perlDreamer	no	01:02
+perlDreamer	because, once invoked, it will keep running until they are all cleaned up	01:03
+perlDreamer	running it more frequently is like the child in the back seat saying, "Are we there yet?"	01:03
+perlDreamer	"Are we there yet?"	01:03
+perlDreamer	"Are we there yet?"	01:03
+perlDreamer	no effect on throughput	01:04
+perlDreamer	the factors affecting throughput are:	01:04
+perlDreamer	Number of sessions created per second	01:04
+perlDreamer	Number of sessions to clean up (set by session timeout - 5 minutes)	01:04
+perlDreamer	speed of session cleanup (set by activity code)	01:04
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The activity code is based on iterating over the query result.	01:05
+perlDreamer	speed of data being sorted by mysql	01:05
SquOnk	perlDreamer: If the query result is kept smaller it has a better chance of finishing than trying to iterate over an ever increasing data set.	01:05
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, exactly	01:05
+perlDreamer	but attempting to reinvoke an activity that isn't done running yet won't help :)	01:06
SquOnk	perlDreamer: I understand that. My point is that running the cleanup more often than _hourly_ has a better chance of keeping the data set smaller.	01:06
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, no, it does not	01:06
+perlDreamer	every hour, spectre will attempt to rerun the workflow	01:06
+perlDreamer	if it's still running from the previous hour, it won't do anythine extra	01:07
+perlDreamer	and that's the scenario that you just described	01:07
SquOnk	perlDreamer: So it's better to wait an hour for, say 1000 sessions to clean, than to run every 6 minutes hoping to clean 100 each run?	01:07
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, it's all rate dependent, yes?	01:07
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The overhead to handle 1000 rows is noticeable more than 100 rows.	01:07
+perlDreamer	I'm saying, let's not conjecture	01:09
+perlDreamer	Let's measure instead	01:09
+perlDreamer	and discuss data, instead of arguing opinions	01:09
+perlDreamer	what you're proposing would be a good experiment	01:09
+perlDreamer	but my instincts are telling me that it won't make any difference, if spectre's rate of cleaning things up is way slower than the rate of session creation	01:10
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The workflow uses $sth->array...	01:10
SquOnk	perlDreamer: ...that has to pull the entire result set into a Perl array, not lazily and memory hungry.	01:10
+perlDreamer	no	01:10
+perlDreamer	that pulls one row into an array	01:10
mducharme-laptop	this is all to work around that bug that hasn't been found where the sessions dont get cleaned up?	01:10
+perlDreamer	$sth is an iterator	01:10
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Sorry, my bad	01:10
SquOnk	:-(	01:10
* mducharme-laptop sets up a liferay portal		01:11
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, I could be wrong about that	01:14
* perlDreamer is madly readying DBI pod		01:14
SquOnk	perlDreamer: DBD::mysql works with mysql_store_result by default which is memory hungry because it reads the _full_ query result.	01:16
SquOnk	perlDreamer: So, sth is an iterator over a big chunk of memory that has the whole dataset.	01:16
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, in that case, it's worth our time to limit the number of rows returned to a number that we know that WebGUI can handle in 55 seconds	01:16
SquOnk	Is there a way to cancel a workflow?	01:18
+perlDreamer	if you edit it, WebGUI will tell spectre to stop it, and reschedule it to run again	01:18
+perlDreamer	but in this case, just stopping spectre should work fine	01:19
+perlDreamer	remember, spectre is the controller, and it calls WebGUI to do the heavy work	01:19
+perlDreamer	DBI says we can use something like this to limit the amount of data returned: http://gist.github.com/466009	01:22
+perlDreamer	but who knows if DBD::mysql uses it or not?	01:23
SquOnk	perlDreamer: fetchrow_* happens above the result set. MySQL will have fetched everything to memory. It doesn't have real cursor or lazy reads like Pg.	01:24
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The only advantage would be no array-to-array copying inside Perl. The dataset will still be huge.	01:24
SquOnk	perlDreamer: If I stop spectre and start it again, the workflow is still there waiting to run again.	01:26
+perlDreamer	the instance is still in the db	01:26
SquOnk	perlDreamer: That's what I meant by 'removing' :-)	01:26
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* perlDreamer takes a bicycle break		01:43
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SquOnk	perlDreamer: We found the culprit. A missing index.	02:20
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+perlDreamer	SquOnk, spectre is keeping up (or ahead) now?	02:56
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The activity was too slow.	03:03
SquOnk	perlDreamer: So we added an index	03:03
SquOnk	create index on userloginlog ( sessionid )	03:03
SquOnk	perlDreamer: It flies now :-)	03:03
+perlDreamer	good to know	03:03
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Yes. That index is needed, definitely.	03:04
SquOnk	perlDreamer: We're running the activity every five minutes, takes a few _seconds_ to finish and cleans up roughly 25-30% of the expired sessions.	03:05
SquOnk	perlDreamer: And it also reduced the load on the database.	03:05
SquOnk	All right, I gotta go :-)	03:06
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Talk to you later if I can.	03:07
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r751aa21 / t/lib/WebGUI/Test.pm : when intercepting logging for tests, set all test levels to be true. - http://bit.ly/cmM6Kl	03:13
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r553b4cb / t/lib/WebGUI/Test.pm : when intercepting logging for tests, set all test levels to be true. - http://bit.ly/9V8qNY	03:13
+perlDreamer	so much for one afternoon's time	03:13
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * rbc33063 / (t/Search.t t/Search/Index.t): Use code that works with the WRE's mysql for detecting ft_min_word_len - http://bit.ly/bxKcDJ	03:36
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r48cde5f / (t/Search.t t/Search/Index.t): Use code that works with the WRE's mysql for detecting ft_min_word_len - http://bit.ly/at44n0	03:36
+perlDreamer	that's not at all pleasant, either	03:36
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r86ea723 / (121 files in 61 dirs): Preparing for 7.8.23 release - http://bit.ly/bKbYrw	07:35
+perlDreamer	stoopid demo sites!	08:01
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r82e0fc7 / (4 files in 4 dirs): Ready for 7.8.24 development cycle. - http://bit.ly/bJxl4M	08:22
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-!- Radix_ changed the topic of #webgui to: [7.8.23-stable \| 7.9.8-beta \| WRE 0.9.3] Before you ask, check the wiki: http://wiki.webgui.org \| Pastebin: http://webgui.pastebin.com		08:43
CIA-59	webgui: Graham Knop WebGUI8 * recec483 / lib/WebGUI/Paths.pm : prevent preloading of upgrade modules (+22 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/95FQK3	10:40
CIA-59	webgui: Graham Knop WebGUI8 * re530222 / lib/WebGUI/Config.pm : remove internal cache of WebGUI::Config objects - http://bit.ly/a5aUaB	10:52
CIA-59	webgui: Graham Knop WebGUI8 * r8943853 / (4 files in 4 dirs): remove code trying to prevent caching of config objects - http://bit.ly/9PYHCj	10:52
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spacebat	I'm wondering why the source install of webgui is said to run a lot slower than the binary packages	11:01
spacebat	if we're to use it, I doubt we'll be able to get new machines to do so, in which case we'd be running it on machines that already have a fairly extensive perl ecosystem	11:03
spacebat	also we'd likely be hacking and pushing our own upgrades onto it, which makes me think the source install is what we'd want	11:04
Haarg	it's basically just that the build options used for the wre are adjusted to work better with webgui	11:05
Haarg	i doubt it makes much real difference though	11:06
CIA-59	webgui: Graham Knop WebGUI8 * re4792fe / (19 files in 8 dirs): move var -> share - http://bit.ly/aESQLH	11:07
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SDuensin	Morning.	16:23
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+perlDreamer	nice find, Haarg!	17:51
@khenn	what are you supposed to add to your Moose class when you extend a non Moose class?	17:57
+perlDreamer	isn't is MooseX:Nonmoose, or something like that?	17:58
@khenn	not sure	17:59
@khenn	trying to find it on google	17:59
@frodwith	There is a MooseX::NonMoose that is supposed to transparently handle any strangeness	18:00
@khenn	ah ok	18:01
+perlDreamer	khenn, there are also Moose docs about extending non-Moose objects with Moose	18:01
+perlDreamer	start with perldoc Moose::Manual	18:01
@khenn	yeah I'm looking there now	18:01
@frodwith	http://search.cpan.org/dist/Moose/lib/Moose/Cookbook/Basics/Recipe11.pod	18:01
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@preaction	okay, i've changed the WebGUI 8 ticket tracker to be postable / editable / closable by webgui 8 developers. if you need permissions, let me know	18:25
@preaction	Haarg: you can close and edit tickets now	18:25
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * ra7b8d94 / share/upgrades/7.9.8-8.0.0/addMaintenancePageToConfig.pl : Fix syntax error in an upgrade script - http://bit.ly/ddRXEc	18:50
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@scrottie	hi everyone. afk.	19:25
+perlDreamer	howdy, scrottie	19:31
+perlDreamer	breakfast, bbl	19:46
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+perlDreamer	hey, kimd!	20:12
+perlDreamer	How was the move?	20:12
kimd	Hey, pearldreamer! That was quick.	20:12
kimd	The move was ok.	20:12
kimd	We are still struggling with all the boxes.	20:13
+perlDreamer	didn't you just move a little while ago?	20:13
kimd	At least we are connected with the world again.	20:13
kimd	Jun 21, actually. But it always takes longer than expected.	20:13
kimd	So, what's up in the webgui world?	20:14
kimd	Did I miss anything important?	20:14
+perlDreamer	Lots of UTF-8 bugs	20:14
+perlDreamer	some fixed, some in progress	20:14
+perlDreamer	Lots of WebGUI 8 work	20:14
+perlDreamer	patspam, Haarg and preaction went to YAPC 2010, and came back full of new perly goodness	20:15
kimd	What does that mean exactly?	20:15
kimd	New practices?	20:15
+perlDreamer	Yes, and positive attitude and energy	20:15
kimd	That's good. preaction seemed a bit fatalistic, recently.	20:16
+perlDreamer	He's got a very hard job	20:16
kimd	I assume he has.	20:16
kimd	WebGUI 8 making good progress?	20:16
kimd	Is it possible to run it already?	20:17
+perlDreamer	yes	20:17
+perlDreamer	there's a new public page for tracking WebGUI8 work	20:17
+perlDreamer	webgui.org/8	20:17
kimd	I have seen that one.	20:17
kimd	I was wondering whether I should continue to work on the gallery or rather contribute to WebGUI 8.	20:17
kimd	What is your opinion on that?	20:17
+perlDreamer	we'd love to have some help on 8, but there's a lot to learn	20:18
+perlDreamer	you may find yourself more productive on master	20:18
kimd	I am afraid I would not be very efficient.	20:18
+perlDreamer	on our side, we're not concerned about efficiency	20:18
+perlDreamer	but we don't want to burn you out	20:18
kimd	My regular job is already good for that.	20:19
kimd	I will have very little time in the near future anyhow.	20:19
+perlDreamer	$dayJob really busy?	20:19
kimd	Towards the end of the year it should get better.	20:19
+perlDreamer	and didn't you move another time, within the last year or so?	20:19
kimd	Extreme. Vacation time at the moment and we need to fill all the gaps.	20:19
kimd	I did. The current job is a lot safer and better paid.	20:20
kimd	It was a good decision.	20:20
+perlDreamer	excellent!	20:20
kimd	However, I have more responsibility and need to work a lot.	20:20
+perlDreamer	bummer	20:20
kimd	Sometimes, I wished I could hide somewhere and just do what I love to do.	20:21
kimd	No more time for lab work. It's all desk work now.	20:21
kimd	Still, no reason to complain.	20:21
kimd	What about you? Business going well? Kids developing?	20:21
+perlDreamer	Kids just learned to ride bicycles	20:22
+perlDreamer	so we've gone out almost every day on rides	20:22
kimd	Hey! That is probably exciting.	20:22
kimd	I like that.	20:22
+perlDreamer	my older boy and I are planning on doing "The Bridge Pedal" in Portland	20:22
kimd	We live now near the black forest, btw.	20:22
+perlDreamer	http://blog.bridgepedal.com/	20:22
kimd	Good terrain for bike tours.	20:22
kimd	Nice. I hope it's a webgui site.	20:23
+perlDreamer	no :(	20:23
kimd	Then you should boycott.	20:24
+perlDreamer	I'm a strong WebGUI fan, but I'm a larger Peter Kuskie fan	20:25
+perlDreamer	the boy wants to bike, and that's something we encourage :)	20:25
kimd	Alright. I get your point. I think we can have an exception there. But only this time!!!	20:26
kimd	Enjoy the ride.	20:26
+perlDreamer	we're going to do the 5 bridge ride	20:26
+perlDreamer	it will be very fun	20:26
kimd	Think about buying a tandem. It's fun.	20:27
+perlDreamer	We used to use trailer bikes, which are tandem attachments for kids	20:27
+perlDreamer	but they got big, and heavy	20:27
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kimd	That is exactly what I was having in mind. Have seen it before on the streets.	20:29
kimd	I definitely want one for me and my daughter.	20:29
kimd	Can't wait for it.	20:29
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SquOnk	Greetings.	20:30
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The index made the difference.	20:31
+perlDreamer	SquOnk: if you file a bug for that, I'll add it to the core on bugfixing day next week.	20:32
SquOnk	perlDreamer: All right.	20:32
SquOnk	perlDreamer: I'll do it after lunch.	20:32
+perlDreamer	kimd, Trek makes a trailer bike attachment	20:32
+perlDreamer	I happen to have two used ones, but I'd guess it'd be cheaper to buy one in Germany rather than ship it to you	20:32
+perlDreamer	they are bulky, and relatively heavy	20:33
kimd	Probably. I need to check which brands they sell over here.	20:33
kimd	It can't be that expensive. But sometimes you are surprised.	20:33
kimd	We can have a trailer exchange once we bought one.	20:33
kimd	I mean, in terms of experience.	20:34
+perlDreamer	we just went down to the local bike shop and bought them	20:34
+perlDreamer	bicycling is very popular in portland	20:34
kimd	Will check. There are many bike stores around.	20:35
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+perlDreamer	I need a Property metaclass name that means, "Does not get written to the db", so that we can have read/write methods in objects that are object only, like $cart->error	21:30
+perlDreamer	any suggestions?	21:31
+perlDreamer	Definition::Meta::NoPersist	21:31
+perlDreamer	Definition::Meta::ObjectOnly	21:31
@preaction	has? why does it need to be a property?	21:32
+perlDreamer	I wrote some sloppy write methods that essentially do	21:32
+perlDreamer	$self->session->db->setRow(table, identifier, $self->get());	21:32
+perlDreamer	and I need a way to distinguish which object attributes get persisted to the db, and which don't	21:33
+perlDreamer	for example, the cart has an attribute for storing an error	21:33
+perlDreamer	that never gets written to the db	21:33
+perlDreamer	I don't want to stuff it into the object hash directly	21:33
+perlDreamer	so I need a way to tag it	21:33
+perlDreamer	we have a way to tag attributes to work with set, Definition::Meta::Settable	21:34
+perlDreamer	ooh! Definition::Meta::Writable	21:34
@preaction	why would self->get return anything that was not created with a property keyword?	21:34
+perlDreamer	$self->get('assetId')	21:34
@preaction	well, property or define keyword	21:34
+perlDreamer	we do things like $self->get('lineage')	21:35
+perlDreamer	which is defined with has	21:35
+perlDreamer	are you going nutz, preaction?	21:43
thepacmanfan	is http://www.america.gov/ still running on WebGUI?	21:44
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@preaction	thepacmanfan: view-source, look for <meta name="generator" value="WebGUI X.X.X" />	21:45
thepacmanfan	niiiiiice. magic :P	21:46
thepacmanfan	thanks	21:46
thepacmanfan	so i'm looking for a CMS to run alongside Magento.	21:53
thepacmanfan	at this point i'm looking at Drupal, MODx, and WebGUI.	21:54
+perlDreamer	what kind of features are you looking for in a CMS?	21:56
thepacmanfan	it's for a manufacturer. it'll primarily be static content (product spec pages with fluff), with lots of images and embedded videos. we have a wordpress blog, but we may end up wanting to integrate the blog with the CMS down the road.	21:56
thepacmanfan	we don't want a clunky back end (i'm looking at you, Joomla)	21:57
@rizen	doesn't magento have a built in CMS?	21:57
@rizen	the reason i ask is, what features are you looking for that it doesn't have?	21:57
+perlDreamer	WebGUI has a built-in commerce system. It's not as feature-full as magento's, but it uses all of the WebGUI permissions, users, groups and templating system	21:57
thepacmanfan	rizen, it does, but i hate to box ourselves in by doing CMS stuff in an ecommerce app	21:58
@rizen	fair enough	21:59
thepacmanfan	Magento makes it dificult to put out "just content" pages	21:59
@rizen	that's sort of like the ecommerce system in webgui	21:59
@rizen	it's there if you need simple ecommerce	21:59
@rizen	with your cms	21:59
+perlDreamer	you've got CMS in my Ecommerce!	21:59
@rizen	so it's probably the inverse with magento	21:59
+perlDreamer	__you've__ got Ecommerce in my CMS	22:00
thepacmanfan	you have to dump your content into a static block, and associate that block with a category, to get your content page on the menu	22:00
@rizen	i see	22:00
thepacmanfan	rizen: it would do what we wanted if it didn't want you to associate any prominent content with a category	22:00
thepacmanfan	but oh well	22:01
@rizen	well webgui can almost certainly handle any content management problem you throw at it. people have billions of pages of content in their WebGUI sites	22:01
@rizen	Billions isn't an exaggeration btw. We have some clients that are approaching a billion pages by themselves.	22:01
thepacmanfan	so one of my biggest concerns is themeing... the Magento and CMS integrations need to be seamless.	22:02
thepacmanfan	billions? holy cow. nice.	22:02
+perlDreamer	WebGUI's style is templatable	22:02
@rizen	http://www.webgui.org/sightings	22:03
@rizen	webgui can look like anything	22:03
@rizen	the sightings page can show you just how different they can look	22:03
thepacmanfan	most of those aren't that notable to be... america.gov looks awesome	22:03
+perlDreamer	it won't use the same templating system as Magento, but that's just a question of coding and maintenance	22:03
thepacmanfan	but i see a flexibility there	22:03
thepacmanfan	*to me	22:03
thepacmanfan	well, i guess at this point i might as well install it and get my hands dirty	22:04
thepacmanfan	does it run on Lightspeed?	22:05
@preaction	it's apache/mod_perl specifically, but the WRE's install uses a reverse proxy to the mod_perl httpd	22:06
thepacmanfan	what is WRE?	22:06
+perlDreamer	WebGUI Runtime Enviroment	22:06
@preaction	WebGUI Runtime Environment, a recommended way to install and run WebGUI	22:06
thepacmanfan	hmm, we probably won't want to run it on our Magento server then.	22:06
thepacmanfan	thanks for the info :)	22:07
@preaction	litespeed themselves recommend using litespeed to reverse proxy to an apache/mod_perl instance	22:07
@preaction	http://www.litespeedtech.com/faq.html#modpl	22:08
thepacmanfan	true, i'd forgotten about that	22:08
thepacmanfan	are there any particular reasons you prefer WebGUI over MODx?	22:08
+perlDreamer	WebGUI has a huge set of built-in applications	22:09
+perlDreamer	that all talk to one another	22:09
@preaction	and those built-in apps are fully-supported	22:09
@preaction	http://turnkeye.com/blog/2010/04/nginx-vs-litespeed-test-magento/ <- benchmarks of magento on nginx vs. litespeed	22:10
@rizen	also, all of webgui's templating is web based	22:10
@rizen	and last thing i knew, you had to edit PHP files directly on the server for MODx	22:10
@rizen	it makes templating a lot easier for regular peeps	22:10
@preaction	no PHP or Perl required to edit templates in webgui.	22:11
@preaction	just HTML	22:11
thepacmanfan	hmm... that might be nice	22:11
thepacmanfan	i'm so used to Magento's system, i feel like i can jump into anything now	22:12
thepacmanfan	but either way	22:12
@rizen	the only down side to webgui is that it's so big that there is a small but managable learning curve	22:12
thepacmanfan	i think i will give WebGUI a try	22:12
@preaction	you'd have the same curve in anything else	22:12
thepacmanfan	does it look like it'll stay active for years to come?	22:13
+perlDreamer	we sure hope so!	22:13
@rizen	it's been alive since June 2001	22:13
@rizen	so no reason that it wouldn't continue	22:13
@rizen	and it has a huge user base	22:13
thepacmanfan	the forums and IRC look relatively quiet...	22:13
@rizen	our users are mostly business customers, and therefore aren't very active in the community	22:14
@rizen	most of the activity is in the paid support forums	22:14
+perlDreamer	and the bug board	22:14
@rizen	heh	22:14
@rizen	yeah, and the bug board	22:14
+perlDreamer	and recently, the RFE board	22:14
thepacmanfan	i see	22:14
@rizen	you could try it before you install it at http://demo.webgui.org	22:15
@rizen	post back here if you have questions during the demo	22:16
thepacmanfan	are you part of the team?	22:16
@preaction	we're also hard at work on a major version upgrade, http://webgui.org/8	22:16
@rizen	yup	22:16
thepacmanfan	cool :)	22:16
@preaction	anyone here in #webgui with +o (@ in front of the name) is an employee of Plain Black Corp, the holders of the copyright to WebGUI	22:16
thepacmanfan	that's a nice change from Magento!	22:16
thepacmanfan	how many total devs work on it?	22:17
+perlDreamer	The webgui wiki also has a bunch of information about setting up and using WebGUI	22:17
@preaction	we've got 5, plus perlDreamer, kimd, patspam, and haarg	22:17
+perlDreamer	and MrHairgrease, SynQ, joeri, the Knowmad team	22:17
+perlDreamer	rogier, martien	22:17
thepacmanfan	awesome	22:17
@preaction	haven't heard much from the Dutch teams recently, but there are at least 6 devs there (among the businesses that use WebGUI)	22:18
+perlDreamer	I think they're as busy as we are	22:18
+perlDreamer	lots of WebGUI mobile work, if anything can be gleaned from their upcoming conference talks	22:19
@preaction	most likely, things are looking up in the economy, people looking to repair websites they were unable to repair previously	22:19
+perlDreamer	thepacmanfan: the WebGUI Primer is a good booklet for an introduction to WebGUI, and it's downloadable and free	22:19
thepacmanfan	alright, thanks perlDreamer	22:19
thepacmanfan	brb. coke time. ;)	22:20
@preaction	and of course, we're always here, though most of us are on US time	22:20
+perlDreamer	https://www.plainblack.com/services/training/webgui-primer	22:20
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * re5a2af0 / t/Shop/Vendor.t : Add test for new with properties. - http://bit.ly/9BBNLa	22:26
thepacmanfan	yeah, i'm here 8-4 CST so that works well :)	22:30
+perlDreamer	what kind of manufacturing are you in?	22:32
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r416f62f / (lib/WebGUI/Shop/Vendor.pm t/Shop/Vendor.t): Fix problems with Moose style object creation. - http://bit.ly/b6MZ4J	22:32
thepacmanfan	concrete engraving tools and supplies	22:32
thepacmanfan	electric saws, air chisel tools, recirculating sandblasters, etc	22:33
+perlDreamer	that's an unusual one	22:33
thepacmanfan	yeah, it's a bit of a niche market, i think. very cool company, though	22:34
+perlDreamer	cool!	22:34
thepacmanfan	we market to contractors who engrave and stain existing concrete, as opposed to most companies that can only do stuff with new concrete	22:35
+perlDreamer	that would definitely give them an advantage in bidding	22:37
+perlDreamer	it's way cheaper to rework what you have, rather then rip up what's there and pour in new	22:37
+perlDreamer	to get color, or textures and shapes	22:37
thepacmanfan	yeah... one area it really shines is guys that are out there laying paving stone	22:37
+perlDreamer	like for walkways and patios?	22:38
thepacmanfan	and driveways even	22:39
* perlDreamer takes a lunch break. Be back in a little while.		22:39
thepacmanfan	lots of stone layers have to tear out old concrete before they can put down sand and lay pavers... well, one i talked to a while back said he currently bids that work at $25-30/sq ft.... the dude was all excited because he could just get a saw and a few attachments, and cut grooves and stain the existing concrete instead of tearing it out	22:40
thepacmanfan	he fully expected his costs would drop by 300-400%, and he could drop his prices by 25-30% and pocket the remainder... and of course make a killing ;)	22:41
thepacmanfan	err, his costs would drop ~75%	22:42
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SquOnk	perlDreamer: Hey there. Just filed the bug :-)	23:04
+perlDreamer	thanks, SquOnk!	23:18
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+perlDreamer	preaction: back to Roles and attributes and get	23:46
+perlDreamer	Maybe we should mark them at Gettable, instead of assuming that they can all be used?	23:46
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+perlDreamer	actually, it would be better to assume that everything is gettable, and we should mark those to exclude	23:51
@preaction	no, it would be better to mark the properties in the database, but i don't know	23:53
@preaction	we're tripping over everything because we just had to keep the schema as-is...	23:53
+perlDreamer	maybe this is an issue I'm creating by the way I'm moving things from Class::InsideOut to Moose	23:55
+perlDreamer	the classic WebGUI object has	23:55
+perlDreamer	session and properties	23:56
+perlDreamer	get returns properties, update/set sets propeties and may also write it to the db	23:56
+perlDreamer	when I moved it Moose, I flattened it	23:56
+perlDreamer	get already manually screens out session, but now it has to screen out arbitrary attributes	23:57
+perlDreamer	that's why I thought of marking things as Gettable, Settable, Writable	23:57
@preaction	you mean update/set has to screen them out	23:57
CIA-59	WebGUI: translation * r12529 /translations/German/German/ (Auth_Twitter.pm Asset_Post.pm Shop.pm Asset_Thingy.pm): Updating German on translation server	23:57
+perlDreamer	preaction, set uses the Settable property to screen stuff	23:57
@preaction	get won't cause an error if something isn't gettable, update/set will	23:57
+perlDreamer	ah, but when get is used to return a hash, it checks for all attributes	23:58
+perlDreamer	which could return a session object	23:58
+perlDreamer	and pass it to the template	23:58
+perlDreamer	and in TT, that's bad	23:58
@preaction	okay, wait, let's back up here. what is the real problem?	23:58
+perlDreamer	I think we're getting there :)	23:58
@preaction	we aren't using TT, we don't need to care about it	23:58
+perlDreamer	sidebar, isn't TT planned for 8.0-alpha?	23:58
@preaction	i don't. we started at "A property that shouldn't be written to the database"	23:59
@preaction	no	23:59
+perlDreamer	but it's an optional plugin anyway	23:59
--- Day changed Thu Jul 08 2010
+perlDreamer	and get has never returned session before, and it shouldn't start now	00:01
+perlDreamer	in any case, the general problem	00:01
+perlDreamer	WebGUI needs a way to mark attributes as being gettable or not, settable or not, and probably, writable to the db, or not	00:02
+perlDreamer	gettable, settable, persistable	00:02
+perlDreamer	gettable, for blocking things that shouldn't be gotten, like session (any class) or error (Shop/Cart)	00:03
+perlDreamer	settable, for things like lineage, parentId, etc in Asset	00:03
@preaction	why shouldn't error be gotten?	00:03
@preaction	settable == Moose's readonly?	00:03
+perlDreamer	that may work	00:04
+perlDreamer	error is a problem because I wrote a schlocky write method for Shop/Cart	00:04
+perlDreamer	$self->session->db->setRow(table, identifier, $self->get());	00:04
+perlDreamer	but that can be fixed by getting all the attributes, and checking them 1 by 1	00:04
CIA-59	WebGUI: translation * r12530 /translations/German/German/Shop.pm: Updating German on translation server	00:11
CIA-59	WebGUI: translation * r12531 /translations/German/German/Auth_Twitter.pm: Updating German on translation server	00:11
carogray	head tags in metadata of page/article and assets on page?	00:23
+perlDreamer	say what, carogray?	00:23
carogray	I just put Martinez v. Astrue in the head tags under the metadata for a whole branch of pages	00:23
carogray	edited the branch	00:23
carogray	when I look at the source code	00:24
carogray	I get	00:24
carogray	Martinez v. Astrue settlement Martinez v. Astrue settlementMartinez v. Astrue settlementMartinez v. Astrue settlementMartinez v. Astrue settlementMartinez v. Astrue settlement	00:24
carogray	only wanted it once	00:24
carogray	what should I have done?	00:24
+perlDreamer	each asset has a chance to put their own metadata into the head tags	00:24
@preaction	all of a Page Layout's assets' metadata are added to the full page	00:24
+perlDreamer	so maybe just put it into the Page Layouts, and not the other kinds of assets	00:24
carogray	aah ok thought that might be it, just wanted confirmation thanks	00:25
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+perlDreamer	Haarg, I'm getting test failures for many of the newly merged modules	01:32
+perlDreamer	Paths, Upgrades	01:32
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * ra1f1bf4 / (lib/WebGUI/Shop/Cart.pm t/Shop/Cart.t):	01:32
CIA-59	webgui: Move Cart to Moose.	01:32
CIA-59	webgui: Remove the global AddressBook cache, replace it with a per-object cache. Merge create into	01:32
CIA-59	webgui: new, but leave a create stub for legacy code. - http://bit.ly/bnF62B	01:32
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * re617567 / t/Whitespace.t : The first line of a file is allowed to be POD. Change initial conditions of internal flags to allow this. - http://bit.ly/a5eJQ5	01:36
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * ra60a2cc / sbin/testEnvironment.pl : Document new module required for testing. - http://bit.ly/bScY4X	01:40
+perlDreamer	sorry, Haarg. The undocumented module got me.	01:44
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r4cbbed3 / lib/WebGUI/Shop/Cart.pm : Allow creationDate to be settable in the Cart. - http://bit.ly/cIA8XN	01:53
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SquOnk	Greetings	05:03
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elnino	hi!	08:09
elnino	bye!	08:10
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SDuensin	Morning.	16:25
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CIA-59	WebGUI: translation * r12532 /translations/Swedish/ (20 files in 2 dirs): Updating Swedish on translation server	17:49
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+perlDreamer	morning, folks	19:00
Haarg	morning	19:00
@preaction	mornin!	19:01
* perlDreamer prepares to wreak havoc with the AddressBook API		19:24
thepacmanfan	mornin'	19:24
+perlDreamer	hey, thepacmanfan!	19:25
+perlDreamer	did you have a chance to check out the demo server for WebGUI?	19:25
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SquOnk	Greetings	19:32
+perlDreamer	yo, SquOnk	19:35
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The index thing... huge win!	19:40
+perlDreamer	awesome. We'll put it into 7.9.9 core, and 7.8.24 the week after	19:40
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Now I'm escalating the json.js license thing... the original author is, well, "uncooperative"	19:42
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+perlDreamer	as preaction mentioned in "the bug that is not a bug", isn't YUI already in Debian?	19:42
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r9ebcc0a / (lib/WebGUI/Shop/AddressBook.pm lib/WebGUI/Shop/Cart.pm): Finish C::IO cleanup, strip out create guts. - http://bit.ly/bhIbNv	19:45
+perlDreamer	Haarg, preaction, should we have a GUID type for Moose.	20:20
+perlDreamer	?	20:20
+perlDreamer	I'd like to have one, because I'm seeing places where we want a userId, but don't allow the userId to be visitor	20:20
+perlDreamer	like in the AddressBook	20:21
SquOnk	perlDreamer: I wrote to the bug with additional details.	20:21
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Yes, YUI is in Debian. Yes, Debian's YUI has been tagged with that as a bug.	20:22
SquOnk	perlDreamer: I just opened a ticket on YUI 2.8.1 to see if they fix that for 2.8.2	20:22
+perlDreamer	What does it mean when you say "Debian must provide pristine sources"?	20:22
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Unmodified sources.	20:22
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Exactly what you provide for download.	20:23
SquOnk	perlDreamer: In general, exactly what upstream provides for download for any given package distributed by Debian.	20:23
SquOnk	perlDreamer: When I download from WebGUI's site, I rename it to webgui_7.8.23.orig.tar.gz	20:23
SquOnk	perlDreamer: My packaging is a patch pristine sources.	20:24
+perlDreamer	so, a Debian package for WebGUI would have our YUI, plus whatever patches Debian adds to it	20:24
SquOnk	perlDreamer: My patch _removes_ the YUI part from the _binary_ and links to Debian's YUI package.	20:24
SquOnk	perlDreamer: But the pristine source still have the oddly licensed file.	20:24
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Debian must provide the binary _and_ the source. But the source is rendered non-free by that single file.	20:25
+perlDreamer	I applaud Debian's commitment to it's own rules, but it seems over the top in this case	20:25
+perlDreamer	Anything as vague as "Do no evil" would never stand up to the rigor applied to the GPL	20:25
+perlDreamer	evil is relative	20:26
SquOnk	perlDreamer: There's always someone that finds it over the top :-)	20:26
SquOnk	perlDreamer: That's the problem. Being vague renders it non-free.	20:26
SquOnk	perlDreamer: What you consider Good might be considered Evil by me.	20:26
SquOnk	perlDreamer: And every villain is a hero in his own movie ;-)	20:26
@preaction	someone could litigate that clause, that's the problem	20:26
@preaction	"The US Government uses WebGUI! They're evil! They're not allowed to use YUI!"	20:27
+perlDreamer	usually, vague language is thrown out by courts	20:27
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Turns out that clause was sort of a 'joke' on the "let's fight Evil" proposition of GWB.	20:27
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Then the software doesn't have a license, thus it becomes unusable without clarification.	20:27
SquOnk	perlDreamer: And the owner of the copyright just answered (in writing) "if you don't like my license, don't use the software".	20:28
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Even funny: about three months ago he posted a replacement that's in the Public Domain... but didn't announce it nor mentioned it in the many places he's been bugged about it.	20:29
SquOnk	perlDreamer: As I said, I just filed a bug with YUI. Let see how it goes.	20:29
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The Debian bugs are 'RC' (Release Critical) meaning there will be no Debian stable release unless those bugs are resolved or changed priority. I don't think their priorities will change in the foreseeable future, though.	20:30
+perlDreamer	so no Debian stable until YUI fixes this	20:30
SquOnk	perlDreamer: And there are a _lot_ of bugs on Perl modules, JavaScript libraries, PHP applications and whatnot using the same json.js	20:30
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Or no YUI, WebGUI in Debian stable unless those bugs get fixed.	20:31
SquOnk	perlDreamer: The Release Team has the ability to pull packages out of the release if the pending RC bugs don't have a clear resolution.	20:31
Haarg	preaction, did we ever decide what we wanted to do wrt invalid GUIDs?	20:31
SquOnk	...any RC bug, not only licensing-related ones.	20:31
+perlDreamer	no YUI, WebGUI, perl modules, JS libs, PHP apps, ruby apps, etc	20:32
@preaction	SquOnk: w/o yui in stable, webgui can't work. we're trying to get rid of that dependency, but it's gonna take time	20:32
+perlDreamer	preaction, what would we in place of YUI?	20:33
@preaction	perlDreamer: YUI from CDN	20:33
SquOnk	preaction: Oh, but it will get solved...	20:33
@preaction	installing YUI locally is optional	20:33
SquOnk	...see it's just _one_ file in an _example_.	20:33
SquOnk	It's not even part of the YUI api.	20:33
@preaction	so problem solved, delete the entire examples directory	20:34
@preaction	we certainly do not need it	20:34
SquOnk	preaction: In WebGUI's tarball, yes.	20:34
@preaction	sounds good to me. objections from anyone else?	20:34
SquOnk	preaction: In YUI, get rid of that file or replace with the alternative I suggested.	20:34
@preaction	really, why are they using that json.js when YUI includes a completely different JSON API	20:35
SquOnk	preaction: Beats me. Hopefully, they'll notice with my bug and get rid of it :-)	20:35
@preaction	better idea, i'm an attention whore, so i'll do it and ask for a pull	20:36
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r6d03092 / (3 files in 3 dirs): Convert AddressBook to Moose. - http://bit.ly/chCstY	20:37
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r1193785 / lib/WebGUI/Shop/AddressBook.pm : Remove C::IO line - http://bit.ly/bM8RC6	20:38
+perlDreamer	every single Cart module uses Class::InsideOut	20:40
thepacmanfan	did i understand correctly that a source install will not run on LiteSpeed?	21:08
@preaction	WebGUI runs on Apache/mod_perl only at the moment	21:09
@preaction	the 8.x branch runs on Plack, which you would reverse proxy from litespeed (same as apache/mod_perl, but much faster and more resource efficient)	21:10
thepacmanfan	alright	21:10
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@khenn	is WikiMasterKeywords a new table (new in WebGUI 7.8+) ?	21:28
@khenn	it must be	21:29
@khenn	not in 7.7.31	21:29
@preaction	it's a 7.9 feature	21:31
@khenn	k	21:32
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MrHairgrease1	howdy!	22:40
MrHairgrease1	Has anybody ever heard of cs's putting aache in a endless loop?	22:40
MrHairgrease1	ie. 100% cpu tme for ever and ever	22:40
MrHairgrease1	in the child process	22:41
MrHairgrease1	this is in 7.7.33	22:41
MrHairgrease1	bt it's hard to reproduce	22:41
@khenn	not seen it	23:00
@khenn	I have a site running around 300 CSs on 7.7.31 and never had that issue pop up	23:00
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SquOnk	perlDreamer: http://yuilibrary.com/projects/yui2/ticket/2529037	23:35
SquOnk	perlDreamer: They're on to it. I'm betting they will simply delete the thing :-)	23:35
+perlDreamer	sounds good to me!	23:35
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SquOnk	perlDreamer: The bug has been dealt with :-)	00:53
SquOnk	perlDreamer: It's set for YUI 2.9.0	00:53
SquOnk	perlDreamer: ...and they just deleted it <g>	00:54
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+perlDreamer	awesome	01:01
+perlDreamer	preaction: what are the rules for using MySQL syntax?	01:03
@preaction	rules? what do you need to do?	01:04
+perlDreamer	I did this in an upgrade, CREATE TABLE IF NOT EXISTS WikiMasterKeywords	01:04
+perlDreamer	and someone's reporting that it didn't work	01:04
@preaction	are you sure it was a problem?	01:04
+perlDreamer	no	01:04
@preaction	are you sure he didn't just miss the error in the upgrade that happened?	01:05
+perlDreamer	but I can't think of what else may have happened	01:05
+perlDreamer	'tis possible, but how to prove it?	01:05
@preaction	it worked fine for me a couple weeks ago	01:05
+perlDreamer	I reran the whole upgrade, from 7.9.0 to 7.9.9, and it worked fine	01:05
+perlDreamer	but that's with very new MySQL	01:06
@preaction	try going back to 7.7.31?	01:06
+perlDreamer	I'll do that next, after i close out a ticket	01:06
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+perlDreamer	Haarg, is there any way to remove all tags in a repo, and reimport them all from the remote origin?	01:57
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ckotil	I think one of my users found a bug with tinymce. when adding a link to an image, then center it, then turn off centering. it looses the link.	16:25
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SDuensin	FRIDAY!!!!!	17:04
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thepacmanfan	i have to have root access to run the WRE, right?	17:29
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SDuensin	Only if you want to use ports < 1000 (or is it 1024?).	17:36
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SDuensin	Mine all runs as "webgui".	17:38
thepacmanfan	yeah, but i have to have root access to create a new user don't i?	17:41
thepacmanfan	i'm just trying to figure out if i can run WRE on a bog standard shared hosting account.	17:41
SDuensin	Probably not.	17:41
thepacmanfan	heh	17:41
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thepacmanfan	oh, i guess i need root access to install from source, either....	17:44
thepacmanfan	that's a Big Deal.	17:44
thepacmanfan	=\	17:44
SDuensin	WebGUI really isn't fit for a low-end web host.	17:44
thepacmanfan	wonder if Drupal would run better...	17:45
SDuensin	Hey, watch your language. :-P	17:45
thepacmanfan	:o sorry	17:45
SDuensin	Honestly though, Drupal was designed with low-end hosting in mind.	17:45
thepacmanfan	i'm afraid it's going to be like pulling teeth to get a VPS just for WebGUI.	17:46
* SDuensin is glad to be off Drupal & Joomla, personally.		17:46
thepacmanfan	yeah, i was looking forward to trying WebGUI... however, i need a CMS that can run on shared hosting.	17:46
SDuensin	There are quite a few WebGUI hosts that take care of running the software for you. PlainBlack, myself, etc.	17:47
thepacmanfan	did you prefer Drupal or Joomla?	17:48
SDuensin	That's like asking if I'd rather be shot or stabbed.	17:49
SDuensin	:-)	17:49
thepacmanfan	well, generally i'd rather be stabbed than shot, but that's just me ;)	17:49
SDuensin	Drupal seems more mature, but we just didn't see eye-to-eye.	17:49
thepacmanfan	i see	17:50
thepacmanfan	anything else out there that you'd consider?	17:50
SDuensin	Are you trying to stay within a budget or just as low as you can go?	17:51
SDuensin	Outside WebGUI? Not that I've found. I look all the time just to keep up with what else is out there. I remain WebGUI's #1 fan. :-)	17:51
thepacmanfan	i don't have a particular budget, but i'd have to get approval for it, which will be kind of tricky just for a development server at this point	17:54
SDuensin	Run it in a VM. How long do you need a test/dev box?	17:55
thepacmanfan	looking at Plain Black's hosting, we'll need the Mini VPS, but that's way above what we want to spend.	17:55
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thepacmanfan	i'd be looking for < $50/mo	17:55
thepacmanfan	but i would be tempted just to pick up a VPS from ServInt and run it myself	17:55
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SDuensin	I do WebGUI hosting for $30. Just WebGUI and DNS though. Nothing fancy.	17:56
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thepacmanfan	hmm... we may try a VPS. that way we can run other sites on it too.	18:21
SDuensin	Yup. WebGUI is worth it. :-D	18:21
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+perlDreamer	thepacmanfan, if you go with a VPS, just intstall the very minimum on the OS, drop in the WRE, and you're good to go	18:33
thepacmanfan	k	18:33
+perlDreamer	there are OS specific install notes in the WRE	18:33
+perlDreamer	like, on Red Hat-like OSes, you have to install libgomp	18:33
thepacmanfan	it's running CentOS 5... <3 CentOS	18:33
+perlDreamer	There was a poll from last year, and CentOS was the most popular OS for hosting WebGUI	18:34
thepacmanfan	ah	18:35
thepacmanfan	i'm pretty comfortable with CentOS these days... but maybe i'm kidding myself	18:35
thepacmanfan	:P	18:35
+perlDreamer	I used RedHat and Fedora for over 10 years, then I switched over to Ubuntu	18:40
+perlDreamer	there's even a WebGUI package in Debian	18:42
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SDuensin	UBUNTU!	18:50
+perlDreamer	OQAPI!	18:55
+perlDreamer	now, where's my beer?	18:55
SDuensin	I'm on MegaUpload.com reading their FAQ and had an interesting thought... For $199 you can get unlimited up/down/storage for life. Why has no-one used this as a filesystem yet?	18:56
+perlDreamer	because it's $200?	18:57
@preaction	because nobody's written the fuse plugin for it?	18:57
+perlDreamer	Haarg: http://gist.github.com/469641	18:59
+perlDreamer	Paths.t fails	18:59
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * rfc345f5 / lib/WebGUI/Shop/AddressBook.pm : Fix some POD typos, copy/paste. - http://bit.ly/bsLnW4	19:05
@preaction	wow, merging 7.9 with 8 is ever so much fun!	19:24
+perlDreamer	dude, don't do that	19:24
+perlDreamer	I'll take care of it next wednesday, after the release	19:24
@preaction	i need it to continue, otherwise i can't do anything until then	19:25
+perlDreamer	ah	19:25
@preaction	i put some stuff in 7.9 because it could, but it's really needed for 8	19:25
@preaction	that way it'll be better vetted when the time comes	19:25
+perlDreamer	vette	19:59
+perlDreamer	vette	19:59
+perlDreamer	well, it's been vetted twice so far	19:59
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@scrottie	blrahhghghg.	20:25
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+perlDreamer	scrottie, is that Arizone slang for TGIF?	20:30
@scrottie	hmm. not exactly.	20:31
@scrottie	I'm very confused. as usual. and I'm sitting in a coffee shop in San Francisco. which is unusual.	20:31
+perlDreamer	yes, San Francisco not being in Arizona	20:32
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+perlDreamer	but what are you confused about?	20:37
@scrottie	$asset->getStorageLocation->getPath($asset->get('filename')) isn't matching where the files are actually stored. I have something inconsistent here. actually, two things aren't jivving. even what comes back for filename often doesn't exist in the copy on dusk. yet, somehow, the same of stuff I rsync'd down appears to work. there's stuff in the photo gallery.	20:37
@scrottie	maybe Frank changed what's on the dusk and stuff changed that much between snapshots, but I have a hard time imagining FileAsset records changing that much unless they completely deleted and recreated galleries.	20:38
+perlDreamer	every version has a new storage location	20:38
@scrottie	okay. would WebGUI::Asset::File::GalleryFile::Photo likely ever get versions?	20:38
+perlDreamer	if someone edited it	20:39
@scrottie	photos seem like something that would be uploaded, approved, then ignored.	20:39
+perlDreamer	titles and descriptions change	20:39
@scrottie	mmm.	20:39
+perlDreamer	in general you're right	20:39
+perlDreamer	but we're talking about the behavior of users	20:39
+perlDreamer	which falls into a finite distribution between "mostly predicatble" and "why did they do that"	20:40
@scrottie	no, what you're saying is helpful. I needed to loosen my premises, and in a direction I almost suspected.	20:40
@scrottie	heh	20:40
+perlDreamer	one way to check that is to look at the revisionDates in the db	20:40
@scrottie	this almost makes sense but attempts to confirm my understanding keep contradicting my understanding.	20:40
@scrottie	having assetData.revisionDate = max(assetData.revisionDate) ... I've been doing that a lot.	20:41
@scrottie	in fact, looking at the SQL output, I was kinda wanting to change code around to do that to combine queries down.	20:41
+perlDreamer	the only sure way to take a synchronized snapshot of a site is to shut off Apache and spectre, then take a db dump and a copy of the uploads	20:41
+perlDreamer	scrottie, all core changes require tests	20:42
+perlDreamer	so tread carefully :)	20:42
@scrottie	I don't have logins to the dev or production machines. all I have to work with is Frank's dumps.	20:42
@scrottie	yeah. this was slightly blue-sky. if I can't find my arse with both hands, I'm certainly not going to go changing stuff.	20:42
@scrottie	"it would be easier to rewrite this than to figure it out" is an insult I save for very bad code =)	20:43
@preaction	scrottie: uh, why don't you have logins yet?	20:43
@scrottie	I'm going to decline to answer that question.	20:43
@scrottie	if it's okay.	20:43
+perlDreamer	scrottie, that would be taking the 25th	20:44
@scrottie	let's just say that the reasons are the same as why I'm asking Colin alumni questions.	20:44
+perlDreamer	the right not to incriminate oneself in an open IRC channel :)	20:44
@scrottie	heh	20:44
@scrottie	I know the first rule of IRC (never IRC drunk, ie, don't be Randal) but I'm not sure of 2..24.	20:45
+perlDreamer	rule #2 is "Don't ask for permission to ask, just ask"	20:45
+perlDreamer	rule #3 is "Be patient waiting for answers"	20:45
+perlDreamer	rule #4 is "Be polite"	20:46
@scrottie	don't paste.	20:46
@scrottie	don't hang out in #netsex and a work channel at the same time because eventually you will ww.	20:46
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@scrottie	and hitting #netsex with code is a complete buzz kill.	20:47
+perlDreamer	Read the FAQ, wiki and search the forums	20:49
@scrottie	$asset->getLineage(['descendants'], { returnObjects => 1, } ) ... the objects I get from that I would expect to be able to do getStorageLocation on and have a file.	20:54
@preaction	yes, they're just instantiated assets of the most recent revision (depending on your version tag)	20:55
@scrottie	just like the query finding the latest revision, it should be the latest revision...	20:56
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+perlDreamer	scrottie, that's "the latest revision this user can see"	21:00
+perlDreamer	pending version tags and such	21:00
@scrottie	oh, I have to look for approved status	21:01
+perlDreamer	not necessarily	21:01
+perlDreamer	if the user can see a pending version tag, then they should see the assets in it	21:01
@scrottie	right	21:03
@scrottie	update asset set className = 'WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::Layout::AlumniLayout' where className = 'WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::AlumniLayout'; # I'm about to that. that just reeks of desperation.	21:25
@scrottie	just thought I'd share.	21:26
@preaction	perlDreamer: is WebGUI::Test->cleanupAdminInbox a new thing or something that was removed in 8?	21:29
+perlDreamer	should not have been removed in 8, probably not merged in yet	21:29
+perlDreamer	either that, or it's been moved somewhere	21:29
@preaction	okay, so i messed up a bit	21:29
+perlDreamer	but I ran the whole suite this morning, and all the expected tests passed	21:29
+perlDreamer	it's way easy to do	21:30
+perlDreamer	that's why i'm going to do it every two weeks from now on	21:30
+perlDreamer	so they don't diverge so far again	21:30
+perlDreamer	also so Haarg doesn't get stuck dealing with all the indenting and session work that I keep doing	21:31
+perlDreamer	that was totally not fair to do to him	21:31
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* perlDreamer takes an extended lunch break		21:55
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r73da9e3 / (4 files in 3 dirs): Convert Address to Moose. - http://bit.ly/8ZzxXz	23:50
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r0560de2 / lib/WebGUI/Friends.pm : Use module line. - http://bit.ly/dp7sOX	23:51
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+perlDreamer	preaction, I'm halfway through the Class::InsideOut conversion work	00:08
+perlDreamer	another week, perhaps two, and it'll be done	00:09
+perlDreamer	I don't know how to handle CRUD easily	00:09
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r09767a4 / lib/WebGUI/Shop/Pay.pm : Remove commented out module use line. - http://bit.ly/dprTY6	00:27
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie WebGUI8 * r49182ae / lib/WebGUI/Shop/Credit.pm : Convert Shop::Credit to Moose - http://bit.ly/aT3vNA	00:27
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@scrottie	grr. X has locked up twice today.	00:40
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+perlDreamer	patspam, do you have any hackathon projects?	01:01
@scrottie	^AlumniImageFromStorage(BVK3Nudsi85FNvGSBIQSww) ... this appears literally in output of my SQLQuery. "Preprocess macros on query?" is Yes. I have no idea what that option actually does. I'm generating the ^Template output using concat on literal strings and the argument: select ... concat('^AlumniImageFromStorage(', FileAsset.storageId, ')'), ...	01:11
@scrottie	any suggestions before I start reading the code to see how this works?	01:11
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+perlDreamer	scrottie, make sure that the Macro is in the config file	01:13
+perlDreamer	make sure that all required modules are present	01:13
+perlDreamer	and then check the WebGUI log file for more love notes	01:14
@scrottie	done, done, done.	01:14
@scrottie	thanks. alrighty. let's see...	01:14
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@scrottie	yup. macros are processed before the query is run, not on the output of the query.	01:34
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+perlDreamer	scrottie, are the macros in a template?	01:53
@scrottie	they wind up as template variables.	01:54
@scrottie	er, in template variables.	01:55
+perlDreamer	oh, that could definitely be a problem	01:55
+perlDreamer	nope, seems to work okay	01:57
+perlDreamer	http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1278694770_191/home/untitled	01:57
+perlDreamer	works with and without asset focus	01:57
@scrottie	I'm trying to find the code that parses the ^macro stuff out to figure out what the rules are for being recognized...	01:57
+perlDreamer	check out that link I posted above	01:58
+perlDreamer	standard webgui admin login	01:58
+perlDreamer	this is the query I used: select userId, username, concat(userId," ^u;") as trial from users	01:58
+perlDreamer	and I get evaluated macros in the output	01:58
+perlDreamer	what kind of output are you looking for?	01:59
+perlDreamer	HTML, download, CSV?	01:59
@scrottie	HTML	02:00
@scrottie	concat(userId," ^u;") ... not familiar with the 111 ^u syntax	02:01
@scrottie	er, 111 ^u;	02:01
+perlDreamer	^u; is the company url macro	02:01
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+perlDreamer	I just needed a macro that I could test for evaluation	02:01
+perlDreamer	although, I suspect that macros are being evaluated in a second pass	02:02
+perlDreamer	Can't remember the execution order	02:02
+perlDreamer	if it's template, than macros, or the other way around	02:02
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+perlDreamer	in any case, that simple test case seems to be working	02:03
@scrottie	it sure as heck is.	02:04
+perlDreamer	but that's also on 7.8.22	02:04
+perlDreamer	client site is likely running something else	02:04
+perlDreamer	so it could be a bug that will be fixed with an upgrade	02:04
@scrottie	nope.	02:04
@scrottie	concat('^AlumniImageFromStorage(', FileAsset.storageId, ')'), # wrong	02:04
@scrottie	concat('^AlumniImageFromStorage(', FileAsset.storageId, ');'), # much better	02:05
+perlDreamer	yeah, semicolon required	02:05
@scrottie	(trivial test)++	02:05
+perlDreamer	parens are optional, but not the semicolon, or the caret	02:05
@scrottie	I failed to remember after reading that and then did a bad cargo cult job from another template.	02:05
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+perlDreamer	happy weekend!	02:52
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eiro	hello all	14:49
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eiro	re	15:01
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@rizen	pat are you here?	20:09
@rizen	patspam, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah, patspam	20:10
@rizen	it's like batman only not	20:10
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CIA-59	WebGUI: translation * r12533 /translations/German/German/Auth_Twitter.pm: Updating German on translation server	21:41
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@preaction	so i keep thinking more and more that we need Spectre to just DO THINGS instead of passing off to the server	22:03
@preaction	ex: Say i make a RemoteVideo asset that accepts a movie file and eventually uploads it to Viddler for you. if the viddler upload takes longer than 60 seconds, it can't be done during commit. but that is where it needs to be done.	22:04
@preaction	no, wait, nm, it needs to be done before commit	22:04
@preaction	which is probably worse	22:04
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carogray	Spain won the world cup! 1-0 in about 27 minutes overtime	00:19
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+perlDreamer	preaction, IMO, video submit would be handled by a completely different workflow, that is triggered after the user "commits" the new asset.	01:23
+perlDreamer	also, re soccer if the Dutch government used more WebGUI, they would have won the cup.	01:24
+perlDreamer	Just sayin'	01:24
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fokat	preaction, Yeah, Spectre should _do_.	05:39
fokat	preaction, This allows for decoupled tasks where only the result is interesting for WG.	05:40
fokat	Also, it could run on a separate machine if needed.	05:40
+perlDreamer	bah	06:20
+perlDreamer	you can already run spectre on a separate machine	06:20
+perlDreamer	spectre was designed to be small, and not to take up any memory	06:21
+perlDreamer	if you make it do things, it will take up memory	06:21
@preaction	right, but i need something truly async, we don't have anything like that yet	06:21
+perlDreamer	async from what?	06:21
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SDuensin	Morning.	16:34
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CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r5fdb8e3 / (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/i18n/English/Shop.pm): fix copy/paste error with shop template variables. Fixes bug #11709 - http://bit.ly/ca1onJ	19:15
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+perlDreamer	preaction: regarding the YUI licensing issue, we're just nuking the examples directory for now, yes?	19:30
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@preaction	yes	19:31
@preaction	it's not necessary	19:32
+perlDreamer	preaction, if the code editor bugs were fixed, we _could_ release 7.9 as stable	19:32
@preaction	there's a half-dozen non-code-editor-related bugs	19:34
@preaction	the first page or two	19:34
@preaction	the last two pages are all HelpDesk and unfixables	19:34
+perlDreamer	I may be able to reduce that number over the next few days...	19:37
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r8938685 / (1186 files in 101 dirs): Purge YUI example code due to license issues with Debian*. Fixes bug #11710. - http://bit.ly/9LY86d	19:37
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * r6128c0d / (1186 files in 101 dirs): Remove YUI example code due to licensing issues with Debian*. Fixes bug #11710. - http://bit.ly/aDjsO0	19:39
@preaction	perlDreamer: you'll also have scrottie, so if you can both hammer the hell out of them, we can get in a good position	19:41
+perlDreamer	suit him up and send him over.	19:41
+perlDreamer	He'll fix bugs, oh yes he well!	19:42
@preaction	i still have one feature i want to put in to 7.9, so i may have you do that if you're up to it	19:42
+perlDreamer	feature? Which one?	19:42
+perlDreamer	I was thinking of implementing the satyam recommended Asset Manager speed-up, but priorities.	19:43
@preaction	asset-based dispatch, moving the guts of WebGUI::Content::Asset to WebGUI::Asset->dispatch()	19:43
+perlDreamer	What's the advantage of doing it that way?	19:44
@preaction	it can be overridden	19:45
@preaction	i override dispatch() to provide my own implementation of ?func=	19:45
+perlDreamer	so this is for compatibility with M::WG?	19:46
@preaction	there's also a change to how WebGUI picks which asset is dispatched to, it checks multiple assets which can either handle it or pass it on. this way we have dirhandlers, and the RssFeed aspect can control .rss	19:46
@preaction	?func= needs to die, but slowly	19:47
@preaction	no, this is just for greater power and flexibility	19:47
@preaction	and i hope for compatibility with Catalyst (Catalyst-based Assets anyone?)	19:47
+perlDreamer	NO!	19:47
@preaction	but like so many things, we have to start by making it POSSIBLE	19:47
+perlDreamer	if you write up a loose spec of what you want, then it will be done	19:48
+perlDreamer	or, just write up a failing test suite with good comments, and I'll make it pass	19:48
@preaction	then slowly make it easier until it's the preferred method, then remove the old busted method	19:48
Haarg	preaction, did we ever decide how to best handle invalid GUIDs	19:48
@preaction	k, i'll get that done today or tomorrow	19:48
+perlDreamer	what's going on in WebGUI these days?	19:48
+perlDreamer	uh WebGUI 8, that is	19:48
@preaction	Haarg: no we didn't. because the question remains about custom code	19:49
@preaction	8 is waiting for me really, i've been busy / lazy	19:49
@preaction	i'm merging 7.9 again, and then i'm pushing all my getEditForm changes	19:49
Haarg	custom code and stuff in the db kind of	19:50
@preaction	then we have to get ready for the Grand Show in two months	19:50
@preaction	yeah	19:50
+perlDreamer	6 weeks	19:50
Haarg	the GUID thing probably needs to go into 7.10	19:50
@preaction	can't we hash the ID (hash the hash...) for the "Sphinx ID"?	19:50
@preaction	yeah, it should be vetted	19:51
Haarg	we could, but it's kind of a shitty way to handle it since we should just be able to use the GUID	19:51
+perlDreamer	would it be easier if we switched to hexIds everywhere?	19:52
Haarg	no	19:52
+perlDreamer	people are less likely to try and forge them	19:52
@preaction	but there is no better way: assets have a way to be inserted in upgrades with a given GUID, but otherwise it's the programmer giving us a GUID	19:53
Haarg	because the problem ids don't have valid hex ids	19:53
@preaction	no, the problem is "PBAsset0000000000000001"	19:53
+perlDreamer	yeah, PBAsset\d+$	19:53
Haarg	i guess we need to decide if we can rely on the GUIDs having uniform randomness	19:53
@preaction	and then "PBAsset00000000000000002" <- the first significant bits aren't unique enough for the smaller Sphinx ID	19:53
+perlDreamer	in other words, just about 1/3-1/2 of them	19:53
@preaction	and the last significant bits are, but only for those. what about others?	19:54
@preaction	yeah, and not just assets, groups, workflows, activities, users, etc...	19:54
@preaction	oh, wait, assets are the only ones we care about	19:54
Haarg	if we don't want to rely on that, we need to either hash the id, or otherwise combine the entire thing	19:54
@preaction	we're not going to index workflow activities :p	19:55
Haarg	like, if we wanted something faster than a hash (although it probably isn't important) we could xor the first and second half	19:55
@preaction	we know already we can't rely on it having enough significant bits, unless we change them	19:55
Haarg	but that wouldn't work for the busted IDs either	19:56
Haarg	the other problem is that if we don't use the GUID as it is exactly we have to store the search ID anyway	19:57
@preaction	i think if we limit it to assets, and can scan custom assets and give the author a problem report (and offer to switch to a valid GUID for them if they update their code with the new one), it would work	19:58
Haarg	i think it's going to have to be compatible with 7.x though	19:59
@preaction	no, if we can calculate it from the search ID and keep the asset ID in a field in sphinx, it'll be fine. the only time we need the search ID is when WebGUI is telling sphinx what's up. otherwise sphinx will give us back the real asset ID	19:59
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@preaction	at least, from what i understood of the presentation	20:00
+perlDreamer	what is the "Sphinx ID"?	20:00
Haarg	ah yeah	20:00
@preaction	in which we can't break stuff as drastically as this would...	20:00
Haarg	was forgetting the extra fields	20:00
@preaction	the Sphinx search engine requires a numeric ID	20:00
@preaction	a small numeric ID	20:01
Haarg	sphinx uses a 64-bit id	20:01
Haarg	which is half of our GUID	20:01
Haarg	for anything generated by Session::Id, we can just use half of the GUID	20:01
+perlDreamer	but it's not numeric	20:01
Haarg	but that doesn't work for manually constructed IDs	20:02
Haarg	yes it is	20:02
Haarg	it's just a 128-bit number encoded as base64	20:02
+perlDreamer	let me be specific, $session->id doesn't currently provide a way to get things with only numbers	20:07
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie master * r0e91941 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Add index to userLoginLog so that DeleteExpiredSessions can scale. Fixes bug #11708 - http://bit.ly/aJp0w3	20:09
CIA-59	webgui: Colin Kuskie webgui-7.8 * rffe9b8a / (2 files in 2 dirs): Add index to userLoginLog so that DeleteExpiredSessions can scale. Fixes bug #11708 - http://bit.ly/cqGxmf	20:10
Haarg	no, but perl can't handle numbers that big well anyway	20:10
Haarg	so since we only need to convert from GUID to search id	20:11
Haarg	we can either hash the GUID and use that	20:12
Haarg	or try to detect a 'real' guid, hash if not, and use that	20:12
@preaction	considering it only needs to be used by WebGUI::Search, sounds like a plan	20:13
Haarg	the problem with the latter is if someone manually constructs an ID that appears valid but isn't random	20:13
@preaction	can't save against malice	20:14
Haarg	which would you prefer?	20:14
@preaction	the solution that requires the least amount of WTFs